SEASON TWO

S01, E01: Comic Grief featuring Chonda Pierce and Ken Davis

Watch Our Other Episodes:

S01, E02: Blessed are the Blended featuring Sandi Patty

S01, E03: What’s the Point of Grace? featuring Point of Grace

S01, E04: Fear, Forgiveness and Friendship, Part 1 featuring Anita Renfroe, Patsy Clairmont and Jan Silvious

S01, E05: Adopted, Aren’t We All? featuring Mark Schultz

S01, E06: Dinner Conversations Christmas Special

S01, E07: Dinner Conversations Another Christmas Special

S01, E08: Racism in the Church featuring Nicole C. Mullen

S01, E09: Liquor and Legalism featuring Russ Taff

S01, E10: Fear, Forgiveness and Friendship, Part 2 featuring Anita Renfroe, Patsy Clairmont and Jan Silvious

S01, E11: Musical Theology featuring Buddy Greene and Ron Block

S01, E12: What is Worship? featuring Travis Cottrell, Sandi Patty, Nicole C. Mullen, Robert J. Morgan, Seth & Nirva and Michael W. Smith

7/9/19 7/9/19

The Last Goodbye featuring Amy Grant

Pop singer-songwriter Amy Grant initiates a tender table talk on the beautiful realities of aging parents — especially those dealing with dementia.

Pop singer-songwriter Amy Grant initiates a tender table talk on the beautiful realities of aging parents — especially those dealing with dementia. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

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Mark: Today's episode is with a legend in Christian music and pop music.

Andrew: Pop music.

Mark: Amy Grant is here today on Dinner Conversations, and I'm very excited. I first heard her sing “Father's Eyes.” If you don't know that song, "Father's Eyes" by Amy Grant, Google it.

Andrew: Did you have it on a cassette tape?

Mark: I had it on a little album first and then of course cassette.

Andrew: And then CD and downloads.

Mark: How did you get to know Amy?

Andrew: You know, Amy, I got to meet her through my good friend Cindy Morgan, and through that, I have become the recipient of what I believe is Amy’s beautiful friendship. She is a warm, inviting, accepting, open-hearted person, so kind. And what I really love about her, and I think we experienced this on set today, is that when you're in the company of Amy, you can just be yourself. We had a great conversation about losing her parents. She just lost her father, losing both of them through the journey of dementia. And of course that's a personal journey for you too.

Mark: Yeah. And you're gonna love this conversation. And there's one seat left at that table, and it's yours. Let's join the conversation.

Mark: So, Amy Grant, how are you? “Father's Eyes” was the first time I ever heard of Amy Grant.

Amy: Really?

Mark: Oh yeah. I was in Houston, Texas, and I fell in love with that song because it was speaking to me. And then I followed--

Andrew: It was the year before I was born.

Mark: It probably was.

Amy: That puts it all in perspective.

Mark: It was probably '80, was it '80 something?

Amy: I recorded in that in 1979. And it was written by Gary Chapman.

Mark: And what a lyric. I was already in love with lyrics at that time.

Amy: Yeah.

Mark: And anything that spoke to my young heart. 'Cause I'm a few years older than you, but you started early.

Amy: I did.

Mark: You were how old when you started?

Amy: Fifteen when I started writing songs, and I was 17 when my first record came out. But it just barely. It just came out kind of like, the way dew appears on grass. No one like… The big thunderstorm, you just sort of showed up.

Mark: What was that album?

Amy: That was just a record called by my name.

Andrew: Did you have any clue? I mean, did you know what was ahead? Did you even think about what could be ahead?

Amy: Oh gosh, no. I just, you know, I loved music. I mean, this is still true. I am as happy in the crowd as I am on stage. I just, through a strange set of circumstances, got the opportunity to make music. And nobody cared. I mean nobody. I was in high school, and it wasn't a big deal. And I told a few friends but not many, in case it was a total flop. I didn't want anybody's sympathy. It was not a career path, you know. I just loved music. And I knew a lot of people who were much more talented than I was. So I was kinda like going, how did I get this shot? But I did. And I felt that way a lot in my life. Like I'll get a call to do something. And I remember asking a producer one time, like was there a nuclear blast and all female singers were killed and so I got the call?

Mark: Really?

Andrew: Is that how you felt when we called?

Amy: Close.

Mark: When did you realize, OK, this is really taking off, and how have you dealt with your insecurities about that? How do you fix that? Just get out and do it?

Amy: Well, the first question.

Mark: Right, I did ask three. I'm sorry.

Amy: I was a senior in college. I did not graduate, but I was into my fourth year of college, and all my friends were getting serious jobs, like a lot of people were just interviewing. And up to that point, everything, it just felt like, oh, what a fun weekend thing to do. And I just kept thinking, ooh, I need to do something serious. I think I need to get a real job.

Andrew: So music still felt like a hobby. It still felt like this is on my spare time.

Amy: Yeah, and I think it's because of the amount of space it took up in my head, and as weird as this sounds, it still takes up the same amount of space.

Mark: Which means?

Amy: It means that I love doing it, but I don't wake up and go to sleep thinking about music. I don't wake up… And so I don't know if that was just how I managed my expectations, I don't know if it's how I managed my insecurity, but it's just--

Mark: It's not your all, like you're not addicted to it.

Amy: Well, I guess not. I mean, I love it. But I create… There's so many ways that creativity expresses itself in life.

Andrew: I think about songs, like when he talks about "Father's Eyes," and I think about now your perspective, that's what, 30 going on 40 years ago, can you believe that? Do you, when you sing those songs, when you think about those songs, or just think about that music that was coming out of you at that age and that time, do you still relate to that, or is it kinda like a distant memory?

Amy: Well, it's all those things. I mean, some of that… I mean, it's just like anything that you did when you were in high school or just out of school, you kinda go, oh my gosh. I mean, you're the same person, but you just grow and change.

Mark: And you wouldn't have said it quite like that maybe.

Amy: Well, like with “Father's Eyes," I just sang Gary's lyric. But it's funny how a song like that, the meaning, some songs the meaning deepens. And then becomes nostalgic for all kinds of different reasons. But I find that with every song. You sing it 'cause you're coming at it from one vantage point. And then something will happen in life and then suddenly you go, oh my gosh, I've got a song that just fits this.

Mark: Yeah.

Amy: But that's just perspective, you know, it's always changing.

Andrew: I think about perspective, OK. So your dad just crossed over to the other side.

Amy: That's right.

Andrew: A few weeks ago, and your mom passed a few years before that. And so now I remember, this is why this comes to mind, I remember talking to my mother, who… My grandfather died maybe four or five years ago. Her mother had died several years before that. And I was just talking to her after my granddad died. We're all very close. She was very close to her parents, and I said, "How do you feel? How does it feel to…" There were a lot of raw emotions, but what I remember her saying is, "I feel a little displaced.” She said, "Because I’m the top of the chain now. I am the matriarch,” is what she kept saying. Even though she has brothers and sisters, of her family, she is now at the top. Do you feel, even with all the emotion of losing your father, do you feel some of that placement?

Amy: I mean, I...

Mark: You're next, is what he's trying to say.

Amy: I do feel like… Yeah. I mean you feel a little bit hedged in when you can look down the road.

Mark: Yeah, the conveyor belt.

Amy: And go, he's much older than I am. I mean, he's my dad.

Mark: At least he looks it.

Amy: But I think because my father had such a long battle with dementia, like the first thing I felt when he passed, it was best said by my sister Kathy. She said, "You know when you travel overseas, like for every time zone difference you've been in, it takes about that long to adjust.” So if you are in Southeast Asia, you can still wake up two weeks from now in the middle of the night 'cause it's 14-15 hour difference. And right after my dad passed, she said, "The last eight years I don't even know what time zone you've been in.” And that was really how it felt. For about two weeks, I just remember kinda like really feeling untethered. Not by own mortality, but just, I mean not thinking about I'm next, or even the baton has been passed. What's this? Oh, I'm holding it, oh my gosh. But it just felt unfamiliar. And our routine of how we cared for him, so I felt--

Mark: Did you all take care of him yourself?

Amy: No, we had professional round-the-clock care in an efficiency apartment. It was just what worked best for him, and he had saved and planned and set aside, so we were using all of his resources. Anyway, the first thing I felt was I felt untethered from my sisters.

Andrew: 'Cause this was a joint unified effort.

Amy: Yes. And we would at least once a week try to all be with dad together. And as he lost language, it just became the catch up for us. And my dad's always been surrounded by the voices of women. And so we thought even he's not participating, but this is familiar to him. And that has been a big adjustment. And then I packed my suitcase. I had one gig at the Wild Goose Festival, and then I just traveled. I went to New Hampshire and visited a college friend. I was in North Carolina, a high school friend, hiking in a thunderstorm, I went to Colorado. I went to Boston to see Vince with The Eagles. It was just like I felt like nobody was waiting on me. And I wasn't letting anybody… Wasn't leaving anybody in the lurch. And that was really fun.

Mark: How many years did he have that dementia?

Amy: We started noticing it in 2009, and then he passed.

Mark: About nine years.

Andrew: Your dad, as a doctor, and someone who I would think knowledge was a resource for him and something he collected and loved and used as an exercise in his profession, but pride in his life too. And being a father of girls. But I'm sure wisdom was something he loved to impart. To lose those faculties. Not even thinking about him, but you guys. I just think about it in relation to my parents. I've gleaned so much from them. I love being in their company, hearing their words, their language, their advice. To begin to lose that, it's hard.

Andrew: But you've lost him twice. That's the thing with dementia, you lose them twice.

Amy: Well, that first goodbye is long and slow. But you're right. One of my sisters battled cancer for a while, and she's great now. But you know, she just said, "I want so bad to be able to talk to dad.” 'Cause he was in radiation oncology. You know, but mm-mm. But when he first started losing it, like you would get a voicemail. My sister played one for me and he was trying to talk to her, and then he'd be like, "Come on, Burt, come on.” Like talking to his own brain.

“That first goodbye is long and slow.”

— Amy Grant

Mark: Oh my God.

Amy: And we chose to speak as openly as possible with him about what was going on. And so I don't, you know… Oh my gosh, I remember being out at our farm, which none of us have ever lived there, but we have just enjoyed getting away there. And I loved taking my parents out there. And at the time, I had a little golf cart that I would just… Just moving my mom from the circle where everybody was sitting to the outhouse. Sounds awful to make an 80+ year-old woman use an outhouse, but it's all we had. But I was motioning to my son, going, this is you and me, buddy. I want a golf cart ride to the outhouse. Got this? And he's on the other side of the circle with a lot of family. He's going like this, straight to the home.

Mark: Well, I can tell him how to do that. My mom had dementia and my dad was trying to take care of her. And finally, we said, “Daddy, we can't let her kill you.” And so he agreed, and we told her she was going to the hospital for tests, and that satisfied her. But she went to a home. But he came every day, and she was only in there seven months. And her last words were, "I'm going to the light on the other side."

Amy: Wow.

Mark: Isn't that cool? So the dementia thing for us wasn't as long, but it is a double goodbye, you know?

Amy: Yeah. Well, you know, life is… Everybody's life is unique. And we, you know… I think we're given the tools for a unique journey that we're gonna be on. That's part of faith is just trusting that you have what it takes. And you know, I'm kind of a tree nut. I have more enthusiasm than I do knowledge. But we've done two different small loggings of trees at our farm. And looking at the growth rings on a tree, they… You know, if like I’ll say, well, this black walnut was very strong or this ash, whatever. But you know, the growth rings on a tree are tight, which makes for really strong wood when the times are hard. And the growth rings are very relaxed when there's enough water, enough sunshine, enough...

“Everybody’s life is unique. I think we’re given the tools for a unique journey that we’re gonna be on. That’s part of faith is just trusting that you have what it takes.”

— Amy Grant

Mark: Interesting.

Amy: And I do feel… I feel like I got some tight growth rings. And you can't undo that. You can't undo loss of innocence, you can't undo a new toolkit for problem-solving skills. But I mean that's what we all go through, that's life.

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Mark: And don't forget, not only will your gift be matched 22 times, but for every dollar you donate, we will enter you into a drawing for our Season Two grand prize giveaway. And!

Andrew: What is the giveaway?

Mark: It's dinner with me and Andrew in Houston, Texas, at my favorite restaurant.

Andrew: And right after dinner we’re coming back to Mark's house to be a guest on Mondays with Mark live broadcast.

Mark: And your travel and accommodations are included.

Mark: Does it ever concern you that you might… My brother and I have talked about dementia. I mean does that worry you at all, that you might get it?

Andrew: Do you worry?

Mark: Do you ever think you might have it?

Andrew: I just have never known you to be...

Mark: 'Cause sometimes I think why did I come in this room?

Amy: Yeah.

Mark: Have you gotten there yet?

Amy: Oh, yeah. I mean every time I lose anything--

Andrew: I think you did that when you came in here.

Mark: Why'd I come in this room?

Amy: Yeah, no every time you lost the car keys, it's like… But you just can’t...

Mark: Worry, no.

Amy: Yeah, you can't worry about that.

Andrew: He said that your mom said going to the light on the other side. I distinctly remember this. I must have been maybe in junior high, and a few of us went to a show of yours. It was right after Rich Mullins had died, and you were doing a song or something in tribute of him. And you said something to that effect of, "Now that Rich is on the other side.” And I remember in my very young perspective and experience just so deeply identifying with that, even at the age. That was the first time I had heard death as kind of that definition. And I think the identification was already knowing, at 11 or 12 or 13, that I am in this life, present in this body, and a beautiful life it is. But I mean pining for what is not yet. Do you find yourself, even… Especially in--

Mark: You mean like for Heaven and all?

Andrew: Yeah. Well, and to be complete. I mean even more than a place. I want to be as I was created to be, which I believe we're just not yet. Do you find yourself in that kind of not yet, in between the ever after, you know, really pining for that even more?

Mark: Because you've got more people over there?

Andrew: Maybe so.

Amy: Yeah, I mean, at different times, I feel different things. I mean I, as a high schooler, I went to such a vibrant, alive church. And this was in the 70s, and everything was Maranatha, which means "come, Lord Jesus.” But I remember going, please don't come until I've had sex, I really wanna be a mom. There were always things that I really looked forward to. And so I was like, I mean, yes, I want you to come, but this is beautiful.

Andrew: Right, yeah. Meaningful and...

Mark: And grand babies, you got that coming too, or have you already got 'em?

Amy: I have two grandchildren from Vince's daughter Jenny. And I'm crazy about 'em.

Mark: How old are they?

Amy: Four and seven months.

Mark: Ooh, that's a good age.

Amy: I know. Four-year-old spent the night last night.

Mark: Really?

Amy: Yeah.

Andrew: The battle is on.

Amy: It was good, it was good. But yeah, I think I just… I don't want to outlive my brain or my body. I would love to just be grateful for the day that I'm in. And it's hard and sad to see people… To see anyone that has outlived their curiosity or outlived their joy or outlived their mind.

Mark: Yes. It's tough when you've outlived your mind.

Andrew: Is that where you're at?

Mark: No, but I was thinking about a friend. You know Sheri Easter, by chance?

Amy: Mm-hmm.

Mark: Her momma had Parkinson’s and just passed. And I'd go visit her when I'd go see them, you know. And she was literally awake, alive inside. But she couldn't even open her eyes. And that's when I think, where is the Lord in all of that? I mean, why? And is it wrong to give 'em a little push? I'm serious. 'Cause we just put our dog down.

Amy: Like give people a push? This just got really weird.

Mark: I mean is it wrong? Now this is going… I'm doing a U-turn here, but none of this will make the tape or all of it will. But no, if you were dying, where do we get it in the Bible that we can't help people get on to glory?

Andrew: Well, maybe even reorienting that idea is like we've extended our lives synthetically to some degree.

Mark: There you go.

Andrew: And I think that's the heart behind what you're saying is--

Mark: No, not really. It probably is.

Amy: I was invited, this has been a few years ago, to a dinner party that Senator Frist gave, and this was the invitation: Let's have dinner and talk about dying.

Mark: I love that.

Amy: And I went, oh my gosh. And then he sent out an invitation, I mean a guest list. There were 30-some odd people there, and it was our names, where we lived, and then some description of who we were. But when I--

Mark: I thought there was gonna be a birthdate and a dash.

Amy: No, yeah, that's a good idea. But everybody had… It was sort of comical, you know. And we showed up, and we were told that it was gonna be basically a led conversation. But as a doctor, he said, "Seventy-five percent of people say they wanna die at home. Twenty-five percent do. End of life care is the number one cause of personal bankruptcy.” And he said, "We should make some decisions ahead of time, have a plan.” And as you were saying, I think, do not resuscitate is a plan that a lot of people are starting to choose because there's so many options that people will outlive quality of life.

Andrew: It sounds dark, but isn't that kinda… I feel like that's kinda giving life quality. To die gracefully or graciously.

Mark: If you can.

Andrew: Right.

Mark: You don't get to choose your exit, usually. But if you have any input into that, I would say painless. I don't mind dying. I honestly can't wait. It's the only thing I haven't done. I am looking forward to it. I don't like pain.

“I don’t mind dying. I honestly can’t wait. It’s the only thing I haven’t done.”

— Mark Lowry

Amy: OK.

Mark: OK. Do we got that straight? She's like… No, but dying doesn't scare me, but getting there.

Andrew: Sure, the physical aspect of it.

Amy: Yeah, who knows. Yeah, you're right.

Andrew: Where do you wanna take that?

Amy: I just wanna go to… There's so much about today that is worth engaging in, and so I don't really even...

Mark: Entertain it.

Amy: You know, I tell myself what I tell my kids. You're still breathing. OK, people are more important than things. Just keep breathing and we will figure it out from here. And so yeah, I mean...

Mark: Take it as it comes.

Amy: Just take it as it comes.

Mark: My dad always says that, I’m taking it a tick at a time.

Amy: Yeah.

Andrew: So this is how we first met.

Mark: It is.

Andrew: In chairs like these, talking to… This is the moment--

Mark: And we really should have just left it there, shouldn't we?

Andrew: I was gonna say it's the moment that changed your life, the trajectory of your entire late life.

Mark: Late.

Andrew: Yeah, exactly. You know what I wanna talk about today is your mother, Bev.

Mark: Bev.

Andrew: Anyone who has even seen our show, but even more so has followed your career, seen you in concert, or known you through the years, knows that your mom has had some influence on you, some kind. What kind of influence do you feel like your mom has had on you?

Mark: You know, it's interesting now that she's dead. I see her differently, and I saw her see her mother differently when her mother died. She and her mother had a very contentious relationship. I mean, it was really contentious.

Andrew: From both sides?

Mark: Well, I only saw one side 'cause I was on my mother’s... I was at the house when she would hang up the phone on her mother and then say, "I love her, but I don't like her.” And that's where I first learned that you could love someone and not like them. And… No. Well, you know, and during my time, years with my mother, we got into some heated arguments. I mean, anger, angry, 'cause we were so much alike, I think. And she had an opinion about stuff that I didn't want her to have an opinion about.

Andrew: Like?

Mark: Like anything to do with my career, because when I joined the vocal band, 'cause she was a part of my life in my career, I had a career at 11. So she was part of all that.

Andrew: Kinda manager mom a little bit.

Mark: Yeah, maybe. And then when I joined the vocal band, I moved into a world she knew nothing about, right? And so I would come home with new problems and she would wanna give her own opinion, so I just quit coming home with any problems at all. I knew not to discuss anything to do with stuff that she doesn't know.

Andrew: So did that kinda… I mean, if you can't bring your problems home to your mom.

Mark: No, I just, I wanted… I didn't have any problems. Being in the vocal band was the easiest gig I've ever had. There were no problems, but I couldn't discuss anything because… I didn't really want to anyway. I didn't come home to talk about life on the road. I came home to be her son and be with my family and go see my friends. But I came home rarely when I got on the road 'cause I was on the road all the time. But I reminded her often that you gave me to God. She would always tell me that growing up, "I gave you to God before you were born.” And she did. She lost the baby before me, she nearly lost me, and so she said… And she laid in bed for seven months 'cause her water broke with me at three months.

Andrew: That early?

Mark: Three months into the pregnancy her water broke, so she had to lay down for seven months.

Andrew: To keep you from...

Mark: Or whatever, six months.

Andrew: Crawling out.

Mark: Yeah, well the doctor said, "You're not pregnant.” And I was on the inside of her naval holding on for dear life, saying, "Yes, she is."

Andrew: You were gonna make it.

Mark: So while she was in bed, she over and over prayed and gave me to the Lord, so she reminded me of that my whole life. And I felt special because of it. Well, when the Lord called me to do what I'm doing and I left, I left at 17 and I never looked back. I mean, that's what you do. I'm not a millennial, we leave home, you know? And when I would go home, she would be so smothering, 'cause I was home so rarely, that it made me come home less, because I can't breathe.

Andrew: You felt like controlled a bit or?

Mark: I wanna go home and see my friends too. So that was really aggravating. So there was all that but when they die, and I always used to make fun of momma 'cause I said she's rewriting history. 'Cause after her mother died she became a saint.

Andrew: Her mom did.

Mark: Yeah. Not another negative word.

Andrew: Really?

Mark: Ever. It was like a whole new person emerged.

Andrew: Did you ever ask her about that?

Mark: Oh yeah. You know me, I'm gonna ask. But the truth is, when I explained this to Gloria one time, Gaither. I said, telling her about this, and she said, "But you know, that's just like when you go to heaven. "All the negative's gonna fall away.” 'Cause I do have trouble remembering the negative about her now. I have to make myself remember it if I'm going to remember it. 'Cause now I remember all the good. I remember that I've never known anyone love Jesus, or believe in Jesus, I don’t know how much she loved him, but she believed in him. I think she loved him too. And it caused me to. I mean, we talked about Jesus like I talk about Andrew. It was as real as you are. So that was good.

Andrew: And same.

Mark: And same, and similar. Yeah, he had two eyes also.

Andrew: Handsome little devil.

Mark: Yeah.

Andrew: I think about your mom. I do wanna talk about the last few years of your mom's life. She had dementia the last--

Mark: Three years.

Andrew: Three years of her life.

Mark: That we know of.

Andrew: OK. Tell me, when did that… When did it dawn on you or when did you finally have that realization that she's gonna lose her mind before she takes her last breath?

Mark: When my dad called and said the doctor said she's in the fourth stage. How do you get to the fourth stage without somebody knowing it? But my dad said he'd already… He knew it. Because when she went to a lunch meeting with some of her girlfriends, that she had done a million times, and couldn't remember how to get there. That's when he first knew something was up. So I'd heard someone say the problem with dementia is you lose them twice. That wasn't an original thought. But I heard someone say that, and then I watched it with her. But it wasn't bad because she forgot all her dogma, which I didn't agree with anyway. So it was great, actually.

“I heard someone say the problem with dementia is you lose them twice.”

— Mark Lowry

Andrew: Become more tender, or?

Mark: She became much sweeter. She became not so concerned with what you believe but just that you are. It became like it should have been all along.

Andrew: How interesting.

Mark: She no longer was slipping a cassette into my pocket of a new song she wrote.

Andrew: Interesting. So you experienced a side of your mother...

Mark: She became a fan when I joined the vocal band and quit being my mother, which was odd. I would go home and lay on the couch, and she'd be taking pictures of me like a fan would do. OK, now that was odd.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mark: But when the dementia came, I got three years of her not… She didn't even remember I was in anything. I mean, she remembered me, but she didn't remember anything else. She didn't remember she wrote "I Thirst.” Oh, she was so proud that she wrote that. Like I'm proud I wrote "Mary Did You Know?” I mean, she should have been proud. The cathedrals sang it and it became a big Southern gospel song. But the last week of her life, we were singing it in the nursing home. She knew every word. And at the end of it, she… I asked her, "You know who wrote that, right?” She said, "No, who?” I said, "You did.” She said, "Oh, I did?” And then she said, "That's pretty good.” Which I thought was cute.

Mark Lowry and Beverly Lowry singing “I Thirst”

Thirst
Yet He made the sea
"I thirst," said the King of the ages
In His great thirst He brought water to me

Mark: You know who wrote that?

Beverly: Who?

Mark: You know who wrote that.

Beverly: No, I don't.

Mark: You wrote it.

Beverly: Oh, I did?

Mark: Yeah. You sure did. You're good--

Beverly: That's good.

Mark: You're a good songwriter.

Mark: But it was nice 'cause she still remembered Jesus, which we could talk about Him, which I loved. And she knew every word to every song, every hymn, the harmony.

Andrew: When I think about, you know we talked with Amy about her parents both experiencing dementia, talked about the two goodbyes. And the interesting process of seeing someone you know begin… Their memory, I guess, begin to diminish. I don't know if their mind diminishes. Their memory, right?

Mark: What it is, it's like a VHS tape, it was explained to me by the head of the… I did a concert for Alzheimer’s big operation in Dallas. And he said, "It's like a video cassette tape.” He said, "And you run through your whole life.” He said, "You get to the end and it starts erasing from the end.” He said, "It erases from the most recent to your childhood.” So you could ask momma, "What year is it?” "1947," she'd say. Or I told her one day, I said, "Daddy's coming.” Well, she thought her daddy was coming. And she jumped up, "Oh, is he? Is he here?” And I realized, oh my God, she’s thinking her dad's coming. So it's like the memory, that's the way they explained it to me.

Andrew: So it's almost as if they’re becoming a child again then, if they're going that route, and there's some of that innocence probably of the childhood too. You've said a lot not only on our show but I've heard you say before, too, you know like about grief. We've talked about grief on our show. We talked it about with Chonda and Ken Davis. And you've kind of eluded to I'm not sure that I grieve in that way or that I'm actively grieving. Like we kinda talk about experiencing grief a lot. And then especially in relationship to your mother, that--

Mark: Well, I didn't see her that much.

Andrew: When she was, in the past.

Mark: When she was living. I saw her two or three times a year 'cause I was on the road all the time. I mean all the time. And I didn't live there. And Lynchburg is not easy to get to. You gotta be headed there to go there. I mean, to even go through it, you just don’t, it's out of the way. So maybe that's why when daddy called me after… We had Thanksgiving on Thursday. Monday she dies. And dementia doesn't kill you, it just… You know, you die from something else, but you lose your mind, you just live like that. But she did, she died, she had a heart attack. And he called me and said, "Your mother died.” He said, "Your mom went to be with Jesus tonight.” And it's like someone hit me in the stomach. And I cried there just for a brief second, more so for him ‘cause I heard it in his voice. 'Cause 62 years of marriage, and it seemed like he loved her more now than back then. He would sit and hold her hand. I never saw them sit and hold hands. And he just doted over her. That's why it took him forever to let us put her in a nursing home, because he said, "No, she'd do this for me. I'm gonna do it for her.” Well, I saw him dying.

Andrew: Right, trying to take care of her.

Mark: Yeah, and I said, “Nuh-uh, I'm stepping in here. "I know she's your wife, but she's my mother and I get a vote too. And you're not the best person to be taking care of her.” And so he agreed with that. And it was so wonderful. Anybody dealing with that, put 'em in a home. Trust me, you walk in, if it smells like pee, you walk out. That's how you find a nursing home. And there are people who love, that feel called to this, and we found one in Bedford, Virginia. And daddy then became her husband again and not her caretaker. And that needs to be separated in their minds.

Andrew: For your dad's sake.

Mark: For my mother's sake ‘cause she would get mad at him. And he's the care… She can get mad at the caretaker, but she would never get mad at him if he was just her husband.

Andrew: So do you think grieving, like you say, she's kicking up gold dust, she should be...

Mark: Well, I believe what we sing about. I believe the message of Jesus, that God sent Him to us to take us home, to deliver us. So if I say I believe, and I really do believe it. I mean, it's not hard for me to say that because I really do believe it. That she's in Heaven, and she's got a great mind now. And now she knows God is as sweet as I told her all along He was. We used to argue about that. She'd call and say, "The fear of God's a beginning of wisdom.” And I'd say, "But perfect love casts out fear. "How do you fear someone who loved you enough to die for you, momma?” I don't fear God. Nothing in me fears God. I adore Him, can't wait to see Him. If everything I’ve heard about Him is true.

“I don’t fear God. Nothing in me fears God. I adore Him, can’t wait to see Him. If everything I’ve heard about Him is true.”

— Mark Lowry

Andrew: Yeah, in awe.

Mark: He's more wonderful than I've ever dreamed. And there's nothing to fear. He's a welcoming, loving Father, who wants you to run boldly into His presence and jump up in His lap, like every healthy father has been an image of that for years. But the dementia took all that away, all the fear of God, all the dread. She loved Jesus, but she’s scared of the daddy.

Andrew: Kinda legalist.

Mark: Yeah, 'cause Jesus came between her and the Father and took the beating. And so she's a little leery of daddy. Well, she never got that when you see Jesus, you've seen daddy. Jesus is the Father. They're all one. It's hard, you gotta go ask Richard Rohr.

Andrew: That's right, yeah.

Mark: But The Divine Dance I think explains that really well. The Trinity, I'm reading that right now. So I think she's gonna be a blast. You know I don't know why I don't grieve. It's a lot of wasted time. They wouldn't want you to.

Andrew: And some people grieve, I think… I'll speak for me. My grief would be for… That maybe I'm still, and I think this is the idea of what you're saying maybe, is that I'm still here in this kind of broken world.

Mark: They should be grieving.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mark: For me.

Andrew: And so I experience that as that's what I call grief.

Mark: Well, I say that in… I say momma's kicking up gold dust. I'm looking at you, let her grieve. Now I've said that and that’s a joke, but it's true, too. I don't think there'll be any grieving in Heaven. I mean, what's to grieve? Unless they can still see down here.

Andrew: Sure. But even then, maybe they have a different perspective.

Mark: Right. Oh yeah. Oh, no doubt. If we could see what’s going on behind the scenes, what God's up to something. As Gloria Gaither says, it’s eternal and it's for our good. I think when we get home, He is gonna replay our lives, like we've always dreaded. But it's not to embarrass us but to show us how He was working behind the scenes to get us home. It was a lot more work than you ever dreamed. And you just thought you were stumbling through coincidence after happenstance. And I've been working my butt off to get you home.

Andrew: And maybe that's even part of the grief, I keep thinking, is that I want to see behind the curtain more. You know, yearning to see and know.

Mark: When someone dies that I have seen every day, or I've been in contact with every day, I might grieve. But I have not really, I’m never around anybody very long. Which is kinda sad when you think about it. But I like my life for what it is, I don’t... I mean, I have blissfully, airheadedly danced all the way through it. And I've really enjoyed it. Even the bad stuff. I look back, it's wow, I learned from that. I got a good story outta it. That was 20 minutes.

Andrew: Yeah, that's right.

Mark: That's 20 minutes of material I don't have to worry about. Everything I go through that's horrible, I just look for the diamonds, and they're there. They're everywhere. Especially when the world's falling apart. Especially when you get a doctors report. Especially when you hit Shepherd Drive face first without a helmet. They’re diamonds. And while we're here, it’s only 80 years if you're lucky. When you look at eternity, that's a blip in time. Just, you know, hold on and trust Jesus and you'll get through it.

Andrew: Hold on, you got 20 more.

Mark: Maybe. No one knows.

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Mark: And while you're there, check out our Season One DVD with all of our past episodes and some bonus stuff, as well as check out these cool show mugs.

Andrew: Yeah. So when we have our next conversation you can have coffee with us. Let's get back to the conversation.

Andrew: In my experience with you, there's been a lot of openness to people. I do see that in your life and our interactions together. It's something I hope for my own life to be… To have an openness to be able to receive people and have the capacity to receive them where they are, no strings attached. That's the sign language for that, no strings attached. Do you feel like there's something that caused that openness or created or curated that openness in you to allowing people to just be who they are in your company?

Amy: Well, I guess, first off is you try to provide for other people what you hope to be provided for you. And it does go through my head a lot, if I were that other person, what would I just long to be extended to me? And then my mom and dad, they were just… They were gracious, and I would even say probably shy. But I mean, neither one of my parents would like command a room when the crowd came in and oh, here goes my dad telling his favorite stories. Mm-mm, no. But their door was always open. And so you know, I think that I absorbed from my parents. And I think it's important, through life, we sort of figure out, oh, well, it's important to close the door sometimes. All those, just the swing of appropriate boundaries, appropriate everything. But you don't usually learn something until you do it the wrong way, and I have done… Yeah, whatever I've done right, I've done as many things wrong. I was thinking about some amazing things have happened because I risked and opened the door. And some incredible things have gone wrong. And sometimes at great financial cost. And the only thing I… When my kids are getting involved in something, if they're working with other people, I just go, people are messy. People are messy. Family's messy. But if you just go, well, you know… I mean, I really believe that our ultimate fulfillment here and feeling like we’re living a meaningful life, I think it has everything to do with how we connect with other people. Especially need and surplus. So whatever side of the fence you're on, you're part of a really important dynamic equation that will bring a heightened sense of purpose to your own life. And so because that's been my experience, it has become my belief. And so you can’t... You just always, you know… I mean, years ago when my kids were tiny and Mary Chapman, Gary’s mom, taught me a prayer that I still pray every morning. And it's, God, lead me today to those I need and those that need me, and let something I do have eternal significance. And she said, "Now you’ll never know what that is."

“You try to provide for other people what you hope to be provided for you.”

— Amy Grant

Mark: Yeah.

Amy: And so it's funny because my daughter Corrina is a senior in high school, and we have traded that prayer back and forth. I can't believe it, I can't believe… I mean, even when she's like… When we're not getting along great or there's tension, we've not broken that. And sometimes we say it with a foreign accent, sometimes we say it with a dance move, but it's always that same thing. I had so many early flights on my last work trip and one of them I… It was crazy early and I was on mountain time and I went, oh my gosh, she’s about to get in the car. And I just went, lead me today, dot dot dot. And we finished the prayer via text. Of course, I'm like, please don't be driving.

Mark: Yeah, right, right.

Amy: But you know, I just… I mean, she'll figure her life out, but I did think, I wonder when she’s walking out of her apartment or when she has a toddler, I wonder. I am so crazy about all my kids. She's the only one that I was not sort of in damage control following a divorce because my… Matt, Milly, and Sarah were 11, nine and six when Gary and I split up. And so for all the things that were… I mean, everything had changed. So we were… That was not… That was, you know.

Andrew: Not easy.

Amy: It's not easy. It's not easy even when people seem to find a different kind of stability later. It's about a 10-year tunnel. Five years going in, five years coming out. To have that chance to just not be so laden with guilt. And then to go, hey, guess what, teenagers get mad at your parents anyway, even if it's not because you had a divorce. They're just mad. And then I'd be like, this is fantastic.

Andrew: Maybe I didn't do everything wrong.

Amy: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, I think it's cool, the full circle of life. Even you talking about that you pray a prayer.

Mark: I love that prayer.

Andrew: That Gary's mom--

Amy: Taught me.

Andrew: Taught you. And you're now teaching it to your daughter that you and Vince had. I mean, do you think about that sometimes? How cool, how gracious is life, and generous, to extend that kind of grace, I just think.

Mark: And that divorce time, that was tough. I mean, on your career and reputation. I mean, wasn't it, for a while? But you survived it.

Amy: Yeah. Honestly, when you're going through something like that, the list of things that matter, career and reputation are not even on the list. When you're going through it, uh-huh. It's kinda somebody trying to escape a house fire and wondering if their makeup looks good.

Mark: Oh wow, that's brilliant.

Amy: Just different. The good news--

Mark: Some would check it. As they're exiting.

Amy: That's not real.

Mark: Hold that smoke!

Amy: Yeah.

Andrew: What's the good news?

Mark: What was the good news?

Amy: Well, I was just gonna say, life has a lot of chapters. And this last summer we were… It was a day of day camp, so I host two weeks of day camp at our farm, Barefoot Republic. And then we provide sort of additional activities because it's a farm—

Mark: Did you say Barefoot Republicans?

Amy: Mm-hmm. Barefoot Republic, it's a camp.

Mark: Oh okay.

Andrew: For kids.

Mark: I didn't know the name of it.

Amy: Anyway, we have about 300 people that are there every day, and my cousin actually does the cooking, but she had a couple of days when she couldn’t. So that is a lot of cooking for these kids. So months ago I find myself with the opportunity to go to Billy Graham's funeral. And I go by myself, catch a 5:45 flight out of Nashville. I get there, it's a little bit of a cattle call, but trying to get… You know, I find a seat, and by then, I've seen some familiar faces. But I was not familiar with the two people next to me. But it was freezing cold, and so we're all kinda snuggled together and talking, and it was Cindy and Bubba Cathy from Chick-fil-A. And we're just talking, and I said, "This might be so incredibly opportunistic and gauche, but is there any chance that you would help me feed 300 children at my farm? One day a week for two weeks.” And they said yes. And you know, I thought, why not ask?

Andrew: Yeah, I love that.

Amy: And the day that they came to the farm was one of the days when Vince came by the camp because camping is not his thing. If he's gonna sweat, it's gonna have to be working at a good score of 18 holes. He's a golfing man, but he's not… And he doesn't even come out to camp every year. I think he's been twice in four summers. But this particular day, Bubba and Cindy were both there. And then Vince came out. I was like this is fantastic. And Bubba brought us a ukulele, and he's singing songs and all the kids are around. And I said this camp is really about reconciliation between the haves, the have nots, racial reconciliation, cultural reconciliation. It's kinda good when there's clashes because then we go, well, now here's how we reconcile.

Mark: We talk about it.

Amy: Talk about it, approach all that stuff. Anyway, we're sitting there talking, and I'm so glad that they had a chance to meet Vince. And then in comes a car and rolls the window down, and it's Gary Chapman, my ex-husband. And he was doing something else with Matt at the farm, and it felt, after all these years, like such a gift, to do the hard work of reconciliation. Which can happen even in a divorce.

Mark: Even where?

Amy: Even in a divorce.

Mark: Yes.

Amy: And so I think people can say I don't know that I can do the long haul here in the context of marriage. But choose your context, it’s still about reconciliation. And so that has been, you know… I didn't know that was gonna be part of my journey, any of it.

Andrew: Sure, yeah.

Amy: But now, you know it's funny 'cause you… You can't listen to another conversation and go there are a thousand ways that you could live this day.

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Amy Grant singing “If I Could See”

If I could see what the angels see
Behind the walls, beneath the sea
Under the avalanche, through the trees
Gone would be the mystery
If I could see

If I could hear what angels hear
The thunderous sound of a crashing tear
Holy, holy in my ear
I'd never doubt that God is near
If I could hear

I'd see that love will conquer hate
There's always hope, it's not too late
I'd find the truth is easy to believe
If I could see

If I could know what angels know
That death's goodbye is love's hello
And spirits come and spirits go
I feel them but they never show
If I could know

If I could stand where angels stand
Watch this world while God commands
And see how love designed this plan
Reminders on His feet and hands
If I could stand

I'd see that love will conquer hate
There's always hope, it's not too late
I'd find the truth is easy to believe

If I could see
If I could hear
If I could know
There's nothing to fear
If I could stand
If I could see
Maybe that's finally eternity

If I could see what angels see
Behind these walls to you and me
And let the truth set me free
I'd live this life differently
If I could see

I'd see that love will conquer hate
There's always hope, never too late
I'd find the truth is easy to believe
Just like sunlight shining on my face
I'd feel the presence of Your grace
I'd find the truth and finally be set free
If I could see
If I could see

Andrew: We're all just finding our way, you know?

Amy: Yeah, yeah. Well, we're all connected to each other, we are. And years ago, in the middle of personal upheaval, my brother-in-law, who was at the time my manager also, Dan Harrell. He said, "Just as soon as you can stop stoking that fire of anger, do because we're all gonna be at the same banquet table. Just a heads up."

Mark: Ooh.

Amy: And he was talking about, obviously, on the other side of this life. But it made me… It just made me think about some tables that my family has been a part of. Yeah.

Mark: I think we're gonna be surprised when we get home, how full it is. I think Jesus wins.

Amy: Oh gosh, yeah.

Mark: I just believe it. I think we're gonna be surprised.

Amy: Well, I know my mom's face, right as she was breathing her last breath. And my mom, she knew a lot of beautiful things in life, and she knew a lot of tragedy as well. Anyway, but she loved everything that had to do with God, everything that had to do with Heaven, everything that had to do with Jesus. I mean, I have so many unread books that she gave me, so many… And she would even say, "I must sound like a broken record.” But she said, "The older I get and the things that "I have lost the capacity to do and the ability to do,” She said, "That faith frontier just gets more exciting.” And so I was like, "Mom, have at it. I'm captive audience, talk all you want.” But as far as just being probably the most verbal person of faith I was consistently around my entire life.

Mark: Your mother?

Amy: Was my mother.

Mark: I'd love to have met her.

Amy: Anyway, but at that moment, like she had not really had much interaction for about 36 hours. And three of us were with her right before she took her last breath and we were singing a little bit, and of course we were choked up. And all of a sudden, I don't think she really even looked around at anything or anybody for about a day and a half. And her eyes flew open, and she had a look on her face, like she was a four and a half year old at Disney World and there were no lines.

Mark: Wow.

Amy: I mean, it was so incredible. I grabbed for my iPhone, and just held it above her face. I don't even know that I knew how to… And just...

Mark: Did you get it? Any of 'em turn out alright?

Amy: Yeah, I did. You know, it was a slight fade by then. Because the thing that made me grab it was just, just what I saw. But I mean...

Mark: She saw something, huh?

Amy: It changed the way I feel about death. I mean, I'm so sad when somebody dies early and all the lives that are changed, all the lives. The way it was is over, and there is a new chapter, for everybody, whenever somebody leaves. But I just can't, with a straight face, say that it's all bad. 'Cause it's not.

Andrew: Yeah. I remember being in Nicaragua, and these women who were in the depths of what we consider poverty, right? Amazing how un-impoverished their hearts were compared to mine. And she said that the reason we can be friends is because… Or the reason that we have a connection and don't even know each other or speak the same language, she says, is because God is a wild frontier with no boundaries and no borders.

Mark: Yeah.

Amy: That's beautiful.

Andrew: And I think that’s what we're entering into, you know, the fullness of that. It's just that wild frontier. It's pretty cool.

Mark: Well, I've loved watching your journey, it's been fun, and interesting, and calming. There is a real wisdom with you, that God has given you, Chaz and I have talked about it too. Isn't he funny?

Amy: Yes.

Mark: But no, God has really gifted you with a… Even with the Women of Faith, there's just this calm spirit. Are you that way with your kids? Do you ever scream?

Amy: Well, my mother was not a screamer. I've screamed probably. I bet it's been a handful of times.

Mark: Oh, really?

Amy: Yeah.

Mark: My mother was a screamer.

Amy: I think it's genetic.

Mark: Is it?

Andrew: Really? It's just natural or not.

Amy: I'm just saying, if you were brought up by a screamer, you're probably gonna be a screamer.

Andrew: I tell you something that'll make me scream. Let's go back to you saying you visiting Boston while Vince is with The Eagles. I just freak out about that. When I first heard, I was like, are you kidding me? That's a good life right there. That's a good way to be present.

Mark: That'd be a good mic drop.

Andrew: Yeah, it would.

Mark: Thank you for being with us.

Amy: Sure, yeah.

Mark: Would you eat now?

Amy: Yes.

Amy: I sleep with a good guitar player.

Mark: What did she say?

Andrew: I sleep with a good guitar player.

Mark: That's funny.

Andrew: Yes, ma'm.

Mark: Yes, you do.

Amy: Wow, I am not…

Mark: Amy Grant. OK.

Andrew: Baby, baby.

Mark: Are we done?

Andrew: We're done.

Mark: I gotta pee.

Mark: Oh, sweet, sweet Amy. Wasn't that a great episode? I hope you enjoyed that.

Andrew: You can find more of Amy’s music, so much of her music, through our Amazon affiliate link in our episode descriptions.

Mark: And if you wanna binge watch all of Season Two of Dinner Conversations, you can do that right now on Amazon Prime.

Andrew: So thanks for watching Dinner Conversations with...

Mark: Mark Lowry.

Andrew: And Andrew Greer.

Mark: Yeah. Turning the light on.

Andrew: One question at a time.

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S02, E01: A Change of Mind featuring Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf

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6/23/19 6/23/19

The Humanity of Billy & Ruth featuring Will Graham and Gigi Graham

Billy Graham's grandson, Will Graham, and daughter, Gigi Graham, give a behind-the-scenes biopic on the everyday humanity of two spiritual giants of the twentieth century — Billy and Ruth Graham.

Billy Graham's grandson, Will Graham, and daughter, Gigi Graham, give a behind-the-scenes biopic on the everyday humanity of two spiritual giants of the twentieth century — Billy and Ruth Graham. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times!

Andrew: It's incredible. Visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

Mark: I was performing at The Cove a while back and at lunch Will Graham, Billy Graham's grandson, came to eat with me, and I was wondering, well, I wonder what he's gonna be like? And I'd heard my mother say she taught him at Liberty, and she adored him. And he sat down at the table and started talking. I mean, I didn't have to hardly ask a question. He was off telling the most incredible stories about his grandparents, Billy Graham and Ruth Graham. And on today's episode, he is going to be telling us all the secrets of Billy Graham. No actually, he really is.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mark: But they're not bad. They humanize him, and I asked him when I heard these stories at The Cove, I said please come on Dinner Conversations and share with people like me who think your grandfather was the fourth in the godhead.

Andrew: Sure, yeah.

Mark: To realize he's a freak just like the rest of us and that we all need a Savior, and Billy Graham was always pointing to Jesus, but our tendency is to fall in love with the messenger instead of the message.

Andrew: Yeah, we tend to idolize, and I love how Will dispels that. He loves talking about the human nature--

Mark: And he loved his grandparents.

Andrew: Yes, completely respectful. And then we got the double honor of getting to have Billy and Ruth’s oldest daughter Gigi Graham--

Mark: Not oldest, the daughter they loved the longest.

Andrew: Don't you love that?

Mark: That's how she says it.

Andrew: I know, and she is spunky, and y'all's conversation as a part of this bigger conversation in Billy and Ruth's first home in Montreat, North Carolina.

Mark: That no one gets to go inside of.

Andrew: That's right. We are on the road, and we are hitting it in some great conversations with Will Graham and Gigi Graham.

Mark: And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours! Let's join the conversation.

Mark: Now what grandchild are you? What number are you?

Will: I think I'm about dead center. There's 19 of us.

Mark: OK.

Will: So there's half of 'em in front of me and half of 'em behind me.

Mark: And last time I was there at The Cove, the only time I've been to The Cove. Well, I think. Anyway, I enjoyed it. First time as a solo artist.

Will: I say I think the Gaithers, yeah.

Mark: But the best part of that weekend was lunch with you, and I've told everybody that. 'Cause I didn't know what to expect, you know? I'd seen your father. I'd seen...

Andrew: Franklin?

Mark: Frank, but the sister Anne.

Will: Anne?

Mark: And you know, and they're very, you know, I mean they're very--

Andrew: Formal?

Mark: Yeah, I don't know, dignified, yeah. And then you sit down at the table and open up about my mother teaching you, which immediately we connected there 'cause I love my mother and you obviously did and she liked you a lot.

Will: She loved me a lot.

Mark: But didn't like your wife, you said.

Will: Girlfriend at the time, but didn't like her. But my wife Kendra didn’t. She skipped half her classes, so she didn't deserve to be loved, that's for sure.

Andrew: I like that. Coming from the pastor, didn't deserve to be loved.

Mark: The thing that I remember most and I love so much is you started telling stories about your wonderful grandmother and your wonderful grandfather, and I got to meet your grandmother once when I was performing here, and she invited me up for a Coke float on April Fool's Day, and it took 'em a long time to convince me that it wasn't a joke because it was April 1st and, you know. Well, I went up and had a wonderful time with her. I remember at that time wanting, asking everybody I knew. Every evangelist. And so I had to ask her. I was going through this whole thing. I don't know if you’ve ever been through it, but the whole question of could Jesus have sinned? Not did he, but could he have? And of course Beverly, my mom, said, "It'd be like Satan tempting me, Mark, with a beer. He's tempting me, but I'm not tempted.” And I thought, well, what good is that?

Andrew: It's not temptation.

Mark: Who needs that?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Mark: Grace for something you’re not even tempted with? And your mother said, "Well, I think so. I think he..." You know and I've come to the conclusion that obviously he could've sinned, or you know, what is this?

Andrew: But that he chose not to sin.

Mark: That he just didn’t. Yeah, he chose not to--

Andrew: Therefore, he could identify with us.

Mark: Right, right.

Andrew: An example.

Mark: So it was a wonderful experience, but then you started telling me stories that I'm so glad you shared with me about your grandfather and that he was as human as the rest of us. And he wasn't, you know, he didn't mess up like all those preachers do, but he was a hypochondriac. It was thrilling to me to learn.

Andrew: That he had flaws?

Mark: Yes!

Will: He was a… Let's just say he kept Mayo Clinic in business. He, I don't know. My grandmother and him were exact opposite in this. My grandmother being on the mission field, she knew what hard life was, and she never complained. And she really had a lot of pain. She had a deteriorating back problem, and where late in life, she always had to have morphine patches to help take care of the pain. She was always in pain, and I would see her from time to time wince, and then she would just go on--

Andrew: That was the extent of--

Will: Yeah, and you knew she was in pain, but she's sitting there. And she'll sit there and talk, and no matter how much pain she's in, she wouldn't let you know. And the one thing that helped my grandmother was that on her wall in her bedroom, she had a whole bunch of pictures of family, but in the middle of it was a crown of Jerusalem thorns, and my grandmother said she would never complain because if her God could go through that, point to the crown, then she's got nothing to whine about.

Mark: And did Billy ever hear her say this?

Will: Yeah, oh yeah, but he made up for it. So he was the one--

Andrew: Closed the gap.

Will: Yeah, closed the averages.

Mark: Did anyone ever say, you know, you might be a hypochondriac?

Will: No, well, I'm not sure if we ever used that term, but you know my grandmother she would always correct him. She would kind of rebuke him, you know, "Billy, just stop complaining.” And you've heard the story before, you know, die like a Christian. You know, in other words, don't--

Mark: Shut up and die like a Christian.

Will: You know, everyone’s gonna die one day--

Mark: Tell that story. That's one of my favorite stories you told.

Will: Well, I'm not sure if I know all the details. You may have to ask my Aunt Gigi.

Mark: OK, we'll get out--

Will: To get the truth.

Mark: OK, all right. Yeah, 'cause she already said you're gonna be lying.

Andrew: You'll have the side B of that story. Gigi, we'll come back.

Will: So David Bruce is my granddad's assistant. One of the most loyal men you'll ever meet, one of the greatest men you'll ever meet, and he's a tremendous pastor. But he's been my granddaddy's right hand man, been his personal assistant, and taking care of his finances, everything for my granddaddy. One of the most well-liked people, and he's got the toughest job 'cause he answers to my granddaddy, answers to my dad, and then all the other siblings as well and all the grandkids. He gets shot from all directions.

Mark: Oh my.

Will: So he's got one of the toughest jobs, but he does it with a smile on his face, and we all love him, and he really did have one of the toughest jobs. But, so he used to set up my granddad's crusades, and David Bruce was with my granddaddy one day, and I think they had gone for a swim or something like that. My granddaddy, he said, "I wanna go for a swim. Can't I go for a swim?” We're like, well, yeah, OK. We'll take you for a swim. So he'd go down to the hotel swim and went back, and they were going in and said, “David, I need you to make a phone call to Ruth.” And David's like, “Yes, sir." You know, "Yes, boss. Right away, sir." He's getting the phone, and, "What do you want me to tell her?” And so he's starting to dial the phone number, and he says, "Tell her I'm dying.” And he hangs up the phone real quick. "What do you mean you're dying?” You know, "Do I need to call 911?” "No, call Ruth. Tell her I'm dying. Call her, right now.” You know, he's in this tough place, like seriously, I don't call 911? And he--

Andrew: I need to take care of you.

Will: Yeah. So he's calling, looking at him. "No, call her right now.” OK. So he gets on the phone, and she answers the phone, “Hello?" And he goes, "Mrs. Graham, this is David.” "Oh hey, David. How's things going?” "Well, I think things are OK.” And my granddaddy's like, you know motioning like tell her, and he's like, "Dr. Graham wants me to give you a message.” "OK, what's that?” You know, and granddaddy's like tell her. "He says he's dying," and she just breaks out in total laughter. "He's been saying that for the last 30 years. "Tell him to hurry up.” You know, I mean she would always put things in perspective. Yeah, so she was the one that kept my granddaddy straight and level.

Mark: Did he ever like, "No, I'm serious!” Made it--

Will: Well, probably the day he died, he probably said that. "Told you I was sick. I was sick."

Mark: "Told you I was sick."

Will: But he, you know, the funny thing is he outlived everybody.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mark: Oh wow.

Will: Yeah, that's the one that thought he was gonna die first--

Mark: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah.

Will: And we actually worked on his funeral for over 25 years, we worked on his funeral. 'Cause we really thought he would die first, and you know, my grandmother would die first, and he's got three siblings. Two of them would die. All his team would die. I'm talking about like Bev Shea--

Mark: Right, Bev Shea.

Will: And Cliff.

Andrew: You think about someone who offered so much assurance to people still having what might be irrational fear. I mean, that's the cool human side of someone who offers--

Mark: Did he fear anything?

Will: Well--

Andrew: He feared dying.

Will: He knew where he was going. I think it was the process of dying.

Andrew: The physical.

Will: Yeah, the physical--

Mark: That's what I worry about.

Will: Is it gonna be drowning, you know.

Mark: I'll probably go down in a plane but survive that, then it'll catch on fire, then I'll survive that, then finally I'll be on a raft and I'll survive that and I'll drown.

Will: That's right. Shark gets ya, shark bait.

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Mark: Here I am sitting in the home of Billy and Ruth Graham, and I am with the child of the Grahams that they loved the longest.

Gigi: Thank you for saying that, not the oldest and the eldest. That makes me feel much better.

Mark: And from what I hear from my buddy Phil Waldrep, you are good friends, and he says that you are a riot, and I am attracted always to people-

Gigi: To people that cause trouble?

Mark: Aren't you?

Gigi: Cause trouble?

Mark: No, not trouble, but who still--

Gigi: We stir things up.

Mark: Yeah, we know how to--

Gigi: Yeah, we stir things up.

Mark: Have a good time. I mean, they have the best stories. So you were born in--

Gigi: My mother was that way, believe me.

Mark: Oh, that's what I've heard.

Gigi: Oh yeah.

Mark: Then I got to meet her that one day. We had a Coke float together. That was a thrill.

Gigi: That's the way she would get out of doing exercise. She'd have the nurses bring Coke floats when the therapist would come up.

Mark: Oh really?

Gigi: And they'd sit and do Coke floats for one hour, and she'd say, "OK, that's my hour."

Mark: How did her back, I mean for the last 25 years of her life, Will told me last time I was here, she was like a death sentence of pain.

Gigi: She was always in pain.

Mark: As long as you knew her?

Gigi: I have her back. We have the same doctor, and he says I just have her back. It's just deterioration.

Mark: Hereditary?

Gigi: Deterioration.

Mark: Yeah.

Gigi: Arthritis, and also she had, you know there's the famous story of her falling out of the tree in my yard when my kids were little. That helped, I'm sure, mess things up. She had a crack here, and she had a crack in her heel and it was a pretty hard fall, so.

Mark: And she never complained?

Gigi: Never.

Mark: How would you even know she, I mean, was in pain?

Gigi: You could look in her eyes, you know, and of course, she took some pain medicine, but we'd look in her eyes. "Mom, you hurt, don't you?” “No. I'm fine.” "Mother, you hurt.” "No, I'm fine.” "Mother, come on. How are you? What's the matter? Tell me.” "I don't like organ recitals.” So she just wouldn't tell us.

Mark: What now--

Gigi: Organs! She's not gonna tell us about her organs.

Mark: Oh!

Gigi: She doesn't like organ recitals.

Mark: So your dad.

Gigi: He was the opposite.

Mark: OK.

Gigi: Any little tiny thing that was wrong with him was going to be the end.

Mark: Now was he really sick?

Gigi: Sometimes he did have some very peculiar things happen, and we would, I mean like a spider bite or something that got, you know, that was in the news. Or when he got a bug called the Pseudomonas bug and nobody knew what it was until he stopped in Hawaii on his way to the Orient and an Oriental doctor in Hawaii found out what it was. So he would have, he did have some unusual--

Mark: Some odd things.

Gigi: But he, any little tiny thing, that was gonna be it.

Mark: He was always dying?

Gigi: In fact, one time when he came back from a trip, Mother had one of the staff make for him a gigantic black tombstone. And we have a graveyard on the property. And she had it put in the graveyard and took him down there to see it, and it had his name and he was not a bit… He didn't think this was funny. He wasn’t impressed. He was upset. He did not think it was funny. But she--

Mark: Did she have an inscription?

Gigi: Oh yeah, she was a character.

Mark: Oh yeah.

Gigi: Yeah.

Mark: Oh my gosh.

Gigi: She was fun.

Mark: So tell me about, now your grandparents lived here across the street, and they helped your parents Billy and Ruth buy this home. Is that--

Gigi: Well, I don't know if they helped them, but it's right across the street. This was just a little sort of summer cottage that needed a lot of work, but it was on two lots and had a stream, and the main thing was it was right across the street from my parents.

Mark: 'Cause--

Gigi: And grandparents. And so I think I've got the numbers right. I've got papers somewhere, but I think they paid about $4,000 for this house and thought they were really overextending.

Mark: Wow.

Gigi: Of course, they remodeled over the years, little by little.

Mark: And your mother knew that his life was gonna be on the road a lot and wanted to be near her parents, right?

Gigi: That's true. When he started with Youth for Christ, they were living outside of Chicago and then Daddy asked Mother, said, "You know, if I'm gonna be traveling this much where would you like to live?"

Mark: Aww.

Gigi: Which was very gracious of him.

Mark: Yeah.

Gigi: And she said, "Well, if you're gonna travel, I'd like to live closer to my parents.” Now Daddy would've chosen the beach. He would've chosen Florida or California if it was up to him, sunshine.

Mark: Yeah.

Gigi: But he was gracious and he loved the mountains, but he just loved the beach.

Mark: So, tell me a funny story about your mama.

Gigi: Oh, my mother was a character. Oh, she was a character. She was so, she was extremely creative. She was an intellectual. She was a reader. She was a writer, an artist. But she was spunky. Oh my goodness, she was spunky.

Mark: Yeah?

Gigi: And she used to tell us girls, "It comes a time to quit submitting and start outwitting."

Mark: OK, explain that. Submitting and start outwitting.

Gigi: You know, all that time about submitting to your husband, submitting and all this. Now she says, "There comes a time that you quit submitting and you start outwitting.” And so she did a lot of that.

Mark: I love that! So boy, that would be--

Gigi: And in fact, you know, I would tell Daddy years later when he was older and I’d tell him a story about Mother and I'd say, "That's what she said.” He said, "She did a lot of that, didn't she, honey?” I said, "Yes, she did.” For example, here we have a fireplace, OK? And she loved fireplaces. Mother loved fireplaces. I think Daddy couldn't care less if there was a fireplace. If you go to the home there in Charlotte and look at my grandmother's fireplace, there's no soot in it, OK? I don't know if they ever had a fire in it, but here we had a fire going all the time.

Mark: Yeah?

Gigi: But I think it's because in China growing up, they would gather around a little coal stove in the evening, and the men would read and the women did handwork. And that to her, that was home, that was security, that was love, that was all the things that meant that to her. So she loved... In fact, when she traveled with Daddy, she had a little candle she'd take with her, so in the hotel room she could just light that. That meant something to her.

Mark: Isn't that something?

Gigi: But now Daddy didn't care 'cause he got up 4:30 in the morning or whatever it was to milk all the cows, and so they went to bed very early. They didn't sit around a fireplace and play games or read.

Mark: Sure.

Gigi: So anyway, Mother had this fireplace here and that was fine, but then when we moved, we had to move and things got a little hectic with the tourists here, so we moved, and Mother, when she was building the house up there, she told Daddy she wanted more than one fireplace. Well, Daddy finally, reluctantly I think, agreed to two. Well, Mother wanted more than two fireplaces, so Daddy left and went to India for several weeks. I think it was five or six weeks, maybe longer. She turned to the builder and she said, "I want you to build fireplaces faster than you've ever built them in your life,” and she got five before he came home. That's what she means by outwitting.

Mark: Oh yeah.

Gigi: For all practical purposes, I mean, she was a single parent. Obviously, she had her parents across the street, but Daddy was gone. When I was growing up, it was over 60 percent of the time.

Mark: Wow.

Gigi: So that's a lot. Now, that is not maybe unusual today because we have military and we have, you know, business people that travel a lot, but in those days, fathers weren't gone from home, and so that was unusual. But Mother, she used that instead of complaining, she never, ever, ever complained. Daddy would leave and I'd see tears in her eyes and tears in his eyes, and then she would turn to us and she would quote the old mountain man that said make the least of all that goes and the most of all that comes.

Mark: I love that. I’ve never heard that before.

Gigi: Isn't that great?

Mark: Yes!

Gigi: And she'd say, "You know, kids. Let's go and get ready for Daddy and look forward to his coming back again."

Mark: Oh my gosh.

Gigi: So that's the way she would, you know, always positive.

Mark: How would his life have been different had he not met her?

Gigi: I don't even want to think about it.

Mark: Wow, that was a God thing, wasn't it?

Gigi: It'd be very, very different. In fact, the girl that he was engaged to before Mother--

Mark: Oh, we don't know about that.

Gigi: Oh yeah, well, you can read about her. It's no secret. Her son lives here in town. We can get him to come talk to us. But anyway, he's a friend. The first time he met me, he said, "To think, Gigi. I could have been you."

Mark: Oh!

Gigi: But anyway, but they were very much in love. It was definitely a love relationship, so when Daddy left to go away, it was hard on her. And in those days, obviously, she was alone at night. She would go visit my grandparents across the street some, but you know there was no television or very little. Daddy's favorite program was Gunsmoke, so that only came on once a week, so we didn't have a whole lot of TV. She read and she wrote, and she was creative. She was lonely. I mean, she would put us in bed at night. There was no Facebook. There was no telephones, very little telephone. Our telephone was over there on the wall, and I think our number was four, if I'm not mistaken.

Mark: Are you serious?

Gigi: And in those days you know, those kinda, in fact, the telephone operator was our babysitter 'cause Mother would call her up and say, “Sue, I'm going over to my parents. Now if my babies cry, let me know.” Then she'd hang the receiver over our crib, so.

Mark: You are kidding!

Gigi: This is a little town.

Mark: That is amazing!

Gigi: It was fun. Anyway, but she was lonely at night, you can imagine. And she would take my daddy's jacket and sometimes sleep with it, just so she could have his smell there.

Mark: Wow.

Gigi: And so it was hard on her, but she never complained, never. But she turned all that into creative energy. She was very creative. She knew the Bible a lot better than Daddy did. She was a student of the Bible. She was a real intellectual. I mean, she loved reading that type of book, and she also painted. She was an artist. She was very creative when it came to decorating or making the least of what she had. They didn't have money back then, you know? So she had to make a lot of things. She had learned that in China, and so she was just a very unusual person.

Andrew: I love hearing you call him granddaddy because to me I think about how I observe this man in our history as the most prominent pastor at least in the 20th century, and then maybe one of the most prominent figures at least off American soil in the 20th century, and yet you just call him granddaddy. I mean, did you know the weight of his influence growing up, or was he just granddad?

Will: First time I realized it was probably in kindergarten, so 1980. I remember my teacher came up, my kindergarten teacher Mrs. Burn. She's still alive, and she came up and put her hands on my shoulder and said, “This is Dr. Billy Graham's grandson.” And I'm thinking, how in the world does she know who my granddaddy is, you know? And for us as grandchildren, we called him Daddy Bill.

Andrew: OK.

Will: That was our name of affection for him. My grandmother we called Tai tai, and that's a Chinese word, a bad pronounced Chinese word 'cause Americans can’t pronounce Chinese words, but it means old lady in Wainese. Where she grew up, it was Tai tai. Tai tai is the way they would say it in Wainese, but we called her Tete, which meant old lady. Which we think, man, that's disrespectful.

Andrew: That's what she wanted.

Will: But in China, old age is revered and honored, and so trust me, we don't know Chinese.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Will: So she had to give us that name, so we as grandchildren called her Tete or we shortened it to Tetty sometimes, but we called him Daddy Bill. So those are the ways that we referred to them, and they were always grandparents, but it probably wasn't more 'til I was at Liberty University when I started to realize the weight of what my granddaddy had done, and 'cause I went to a public high school. One high school, I went to it, no one cared who your granddaddy was. They knew who he was, but most of 'em wanted to know, did you score any goals in the soccer games? Or did you get the latest Nintendo game, or you know? Vice versa, which girl are you dating? That's what they cared about. They didn't care about your granddad, you know?

Andrew: Who saves hundreds of thousands of people.

Will: That's right, they didn't care about that. But at the same, so I had a very normal experience, in a sense, growing up. I knew my granddaddy was different, but it wasn't until Liberty when I got around other Christians, you know a lot of Christians, that I started to feel the weight of it when I was at Liberty University, which was starting in ’93, which was a tremendous experience. You know, got to meet your mom there my freshman year, and I ended up meeting my wife there. You know, I'm indebted to Liberty University. How it taught me God's Word. And my granddaddy would even come to my graduation, and I think that was the last graduation he did.

Mark: Wow.

Will: He just, it was a lot of pressure on him and stuff like that--

Mark: But that must have made you proud in another way. I mean, 'cause your grandfather came. I mean, how cool is that?

Andrew: Not just Dr. Billy Graham, but your granddad.

Will: So Falwell, Dr. Falwell allowed him to hand me my degree, so my granddaddy handed me my degree. You know, he made all his grandchildren feel like they're the most important. Both my grandmother and grandfather. Sometimes I say one or the other, but both of 'em always made you feel like you were the most important person in the room. You were the most favorite grandchild. So we all believed that, all 19 of us believed, no, I'm the favorite! No, I'm the favorite!

Mark: Isn't that great?

Will: But we all felt that, and so we were, they loved us each--

Mark: Did they ever say it?

Will: No. They said, "We sure do love you. I'm proud of you.” They would always say that--

Mark: See, I tell my niece and nephews, every one of 'em, they're my favorite, but I whisper it in their ear. And I want 'em to kind of hate the others.

Will: My mom says it, but she says it out loud. And so I said, "Mom--"

Mark: Your mom does?

Will: Yeah, but she says it to the other, my siblings. So, "You're my favorite. I love you too, Will."

Mark: She does not.

Will: "Mom, you got a favorite?” "No, I don't have a favorite."

Mark: How do you think you’re different from your father?

Will: Mm! I think one of the great things I had an opportunity to do was become a pastor. I think that's one big difference that my dad and I do have.

Andrew: Like in a local church setting.

Will: You know, I was a pastor of a local church. My grandfather was a pastor of a local church for 14 months. So, he could only last 14 months.

Andrew: He was like, I'm out.

Will: So if you're a pastor and you lasted more than 14 months, you just did something Billy Graham could never do.

Mark: That's right.

Will: But having that pastor experience, and I went to do it for six months. I was gonna be a pastoral intern for six months, and that's all I signed and agreed to do. Eight years later, I was still there, and I ended up--

Mark: Were you ready to go after eight years?

Will: No, I went with tears.

Mark: You did?

Andrew: Did you feel that calling? I mean, did that calling come in Liberty, or I mean I think did you ever feel pressure to be the perfect Christian kid, or called to the pastorate?

Will: No, I was never… Was I called in life? Yes. And I got that calling early in life, and I look back and I see a dotted trail. I can't just say, boop, here's the date. But I look back and I see a dotted trail, 'cause I remember the teacher said, back in '82 or something like that, ’83, "Draw a picture of what you want to be in life.” So everybody's drawing like Joe Montana helmets, you know 49er helmets and Miami Dolphins, all these type of helmets, 'cause they all wanted to be a quarterback, you know. Every kid wants to be a quarterback and win the Superbowl. But I drew two pictures. I drew one of an open Bible, and then the thing beside it was a pair of David Clark headsets. These are aviation headsets, and they're lime green. They're ugly looking. But they're really nice ones, and that's what my dad would use to fly around and preach. My dad, you know, for Samaritan's Purse. And so I wanted to go be around… These are aviators, the headphones with the microphone.

Andrew: Yeah.

Will: And so I was wanting to fly around, tell people about Jesus, and so what's interesting is that, and I felt like that calling. And I look back and I see all these little steps in my life, other times where God confirmed that calling in my life, but it wouldn't be until Liberty that I would preach my first sermon, and then by my senior year, I had my pilot's license.

“I look back and I see all these steps in my life, other times where God confirmed that calling in my life.”

— Will Graham

Mark: Oh wow.

Will: So I got my pilot's license at Liberty, and I preached my first sermon not at Liberty but during my time at Liberty. And so both of those things came true my senior year at Liberty, so it's just neat how to see God put something on your heart back in '81, '82, and now it's ’97 and coming true, so.

Andrew: Did your granddad ever counsel you in ways of, or you know pastoral things, advice?

Will: No, everybody wants to know if we'd sit down and talk shop. You know, we never did. When I was with them, I didn't talk much. He didn't talk much. And that's one thing people realized that my grandfather, Daddy Bill, he never talked at home, very little.

Andrew: You either, 'cause you talk a lot.

Will: Yeah, I know. Yeah, sorry.

Mark: But that would be more like Ruth then, right? No?

Will: She’s--

Mark: Talked more?

Will: No, I get it from my grandma. Let's say I get it from my mom.

Mark: Oh really?

Will: Yeah, all my mom.

Andrew: Is that right?

Will: It's my mom.

Mark: Yeah?

Will: It's my mom coming out in me. And you know, we're a mix of our parents, right? And I definitely got this from my mom, but my granddaddy wouldn't talk, so when I was with my granddaddy, we never really talked. We just hung out. For a long time when he was sitting in his bedroom, I'd just go back there and sit with him. He said, "Well, how are things going at The Cove?” And I'd give him a little report, you know. And then, "How are the kids?” You know, I'd talk to him. You know, it was just, and we'd sit there and watch TV, like his pastor 'cause he couldn’t physically go to church, so he would just sit and watch his pastor on television, Don Wilton.

Mark: Oh really?

Will: Out at First Baptist Spartanburg, and so we'd be sitting out there watching and listening and just from time to time we would talk, you know, but--

Mark: So he liked to listen to sermons and stuff?

Will: Oh yeah, and he loved to listen to talk to other people. Like other people talking. He would love to sit there and learn about, you know, to you and to you, you know, your families. Tell me about your day, how you grew up. Tell me about your mom, you know, at Liberty and stuff like that. So he would always want to learn about others. That's why his favorite TV show in the world was Larry King Live 'cause he got to learn about everybody before he ever met ‘em, so when he met the person in real life, because he watched Larry King, he would know what this person--

Andrew: A researcher almost, yeah.

Will: So he loved Larry King, and they had a very good relationship. My granddaddy was on there more than anybody else on Larry King.

Mark: Isn't that something?

Will: And sharing the good news of Jesus Christ with Larry and with everybody else, but that was one of those neat things, but my granddaddy, I didn’t, you know, getting back to your question. Did I ever know about my granddaddy? But it wasn't 'til Liberty that I started realizing. I had people knock on my door, and I'd go you know in the dorm room and I'd go, "Hello," you know? And they'd say, “Hey." And they're just like looking past my shoulder and I'm looking in my room like, you know, what are you looking at? Can I help you buddy? You're getting freaky now. This is gonna go south real quick. He said, "Well, I just wanted to see what Billy Graham’s grandson's room looks like."

Mark: Wow.

Will: I was like, seriously?

Andrew: That started to register.

Will: I'm like, dude, it’s just like your dorm room. All our dorms look, they're ugly, all right? Mine's ugly, yours is ugly, all right?

Mark: Have you found it opened any doors for you?

Will: Oh, it opens tons of doors. And that's why I'm grateful. Being Billy Graham's grandson, it's got its curses and blessings.

Mark: Right.

Will: One is, the curse is that everyone has an expectation. One, what you look like, what you're gonna wear, how you're gonna act. But the good things are is that it opens tons of doors. People would do things for me because they loved my granddaddy. So I get to experience things, the benevolence of people, because of the love they have for my granddaddy, and so I'm very grateful for that. And trust me, the blessings far outweigh any of the curses I have in life from it.

Andrew: Well, I listen to you talk about being a preacher, and now I mean that’s what I would consider you being outside of the local church, but working on crusades much like your grandfather did, and I read this where you said, "We don't do massive evangelism. We do one-on-one evangelism on a massive scale.” And I want to ask about that evangelism question because you know evangelism carries a certain connotation that I don't know that it did in your grandfather's era of crusading, you know of kind of maybe browbeating with the Bible or some legalistic things, but you still believe in this evangelism style, or--

“Whatever it is, the way you tell your story online can make all the difference.”

— Will Graham

Will: Proclamation evangelism, we'll call it.

Andrew: OK.

Will: And that yeah, and I still believe in it 'cause the Bible teaches that. Says faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. And so I believe in telling people about Jesus Christ. One thing I am adamant against is lifestyle evangelism.

Andrew: OK.

Mark: What is that? How do you define that?

Will: People define lifestyle evangelism as they're not gonna use words. They're just gonna let their lifestyle evangelize people.

Andrew: OK, so actions and--

Will: Yeah, they say actions are better than words. The Bible says the opposite. Faith comes by hearing, hearing the Word of God. So, the most important thing you can do is tell people about Jesus. Now please don't misunderstand me. Your life is important by how you live out that message.

Andrew: Sure, backs it up.

Will: Yeah, it backs it up, but it's not the other way around 'cause listen, you guys and me will never live a good enough life to lead anybody to Christ. We don't live... There’s only one person that did--

Mark: I'm real good at doing the opposite.

Will: Well, but we all are to be honest. That's why you have to tell people about Christ. That's why Jesus said faith comes by hearing, hearing. They gotta hear it.

Mark: And haven't you found that the older you get, the more in love you've fallen. And that was odd when I was younger to say you're falling in love with the Lord, right? But, let me start over.

Will: I'm gonna get me a drink.

Mark: OK, good.

Will: Of tea, of tea, that is.

Mark: I don't even remember where I was going.

Will: This falling in with Jesus thing.

Mark: Oh right, falling in love with the Lord. The older I get, that old song. He gets sweeter as the days go by. Man, it's true. I mean, the more I get to know the Lord, the kinder and it's easier to talk to people about him because he really is worth getting to know, you know? It's not like if you were to die today, do you know where you'd spend eternity? Man, I don't start there anymore. I start with, hey, where you from? How'd you come to your conclusions? You know, rather than, I used to just see flame licking at everybody's butt all the time, and if I didn't win them to Jesus on this flight, their blood would be on my hands. You don't think that, do you?

Will: No, you know, people are responsible for their own actions.

Mark: Right, but do you witness to every person you see?

Will: I try to, yeah. And sometimes it's quick, you know, like I didn't get it all in. I just took a long flight up to Alaska to go see my dad just a few weeks ago. So I sat down, and I was gonna start talking to the guy, you know. And he, I found out he is a believer, and he goes, "What do you do?” I said, "Well, I'm a preacher."

Mark: That'll open doors. I mean, that'll open conversations.

Will: It is, and you know what? I've never had one person make it a negative.

Mark: Oh yeah, yeah.

Andrew: Interesting, interesting.

Will: I had one lady on the plane, she started to cry, and she said, and I don't know what was going on in her life. I think she was on that plane to go make a bad decision. And she said, "I've been praying that God would send somebody, and lo and behold, a preacher sits beside me and you're talking to me.” And she just started weeping.

Mark: Wow.

Will: She just started crying. I had no idea what was going on, and she goes, "You were an answer to my prayer 'cause I was praying for God to send me something before I did something.” And so I have no idea what it was, but it's interesting because some people say, "I never tell people I'm a preacher.” I've heard preachers say, "I never tell people I'm a…" One guy said, "I'm a manufacture representative.” In other words, God manufactures and he's the representative.

Mark: Got it.

Will: That's what he says. And I was like, no, I'm the opposite. I tell people I'm a preacher.

Mark: Well, it'll either open the doors or shut 'em down--

Will: It's always opened doors.

Andrew: For you, it's always--

Will: Always has. I had one guy who was a big rap star sitting on the plane beside me--

Mark: But you're approachable. You're not a normal preacher.

Will: Well, if I'm young.

Andrew: Rap star, I'm interested in that.

Mark: I'm sorry.

Andrew: No, no.

Will: Well, Asheville's a big music town, foodie, music town, and he was in here doing a gig, and he said, "What do you do?” I said, "I'm a preacher.” "Oh man, you're a preacher. Really? That’s cool, man.” You know, and he just wanted to know what was going on, so he and I talked. It was a short flight to Atlanta. It's only a 20, 30-minute flight. And so--

Andrew: That's where rappers go.

Mark: To Atlanta, you're right.

Will: Get to Atlanta, if you're leaving Asheville, you have to go to Atlanta or Charlotte. Atlanta or Charlotte, that's the only way if you're gonna go anywhere, but you just, it opened up doors. So when I got off the plane, he goes, "Bye, preacher. Nice to talk to you, preacher.” He called me preacher, you know? But it's always, it's never been a negative connotation. I think we think it causes… I get people wanting to talk my ear off, and sometimes I'm like, oh man, I've opened up a can of worms. This is gonna be a long flight.

Andrew: So engaging culture, I think kinda… I'm on the older end of millennialism right? So I always thought I was Gen Xer, it turns out I'm a dumb millennialist or whatever you call it.

Mark: You missed your window of opportunity.

Andrew: I did miss a window of opportunity, but we're in a very, I would say, in a very individualistic kind of universalist culture spiritually speaking, right? There's a lot of pathways to God, kind of designer... I've heard you call it the designer religion. How have you discovered, because you're in this age range. You know, I like that you said earlier, "Well, I am a little younger--"

Will: I'm an Xer.

Andrew: Yeah. So how do you engage culture that's dealing in a fairly ambiguous spiritual, you know, thought process?

Will: You know, I don't have the… I know people want to see you have a big game plan, but I don’t. I just go out there, and I preach. What I found out though for the most part, when a preacher preaches, communicates, he's hitting 10 years above him and 10 years below him.

Andrew: OK.

Will: My granddaddy, his range was a little bit wider. He had very broad appeal, but most pastors are hitting the people… If you look like at a pastor in a church, you'll see the average age of the person is the pastor's age.

Andrew: So if he's 50, the average is 50.

Will: The average is 50.

Mark: See, I've cornered a dying market. I'm old. My people are old, man.

Andrew: You're the average now.

Will: You're the average. So, but you know, that's what I've found. That's just from personal experience. I've noticed that in any church, and I don't want to say it's a die hard rule, just saying that's the average, you'll find it around that average age, 10 years younger to 10 years older either way. The pastor's age is right around there. Even when I was pastoring in the church, I had a whole bunch of old people in there and I had a whole bunch of young people. If you did the age, guess what? It was at my age. I didn't have anybody my age, but I had either side of it when I was pastoring a church in Raleigh. But for me I don't have necessarily a game plan. I just go out and preach to the audience.

Andrew: Keep it central.

Mark: So you don't have a five year plan for your life.

Will: I have, no.

Mark: I've never had one either.

Will: I don't know why people want a five year plan.

Mark: I'm surprised I got this far. I'm serious.

Will: You and I both.

Mark: You're surprised I got this far.

Will: From all the stories your mom told.

Mark: How has it been to be Billy Graham’s... I mean, there's gotta be a lot of good and bad--

Gigi: Well, I grew up with it, so in a way, I didn't know anything different.

Mark: Yeah, right.

Gigi: You know, I didn't know really, this little community here, we were so fortunate to be raised in this community which especially at that time was made up mostly of retired missionaries and pastors from the Presbyterian church.

Mark: How cool.

Gigi: And so these people had served the Lord all over the world, you know? And here we are in redneck country, mountain country, whatever you want to call it here in the mountains, especially when I was growing up, and yet this little cove here was an international community. So God was preparing us even in growing up in a little international community where they all spoke... I mean, we heard you know Portuguese and Spanish and French and African and Chinese and Korean and Japanese spoken among the missionaries here 'cause they would continue… The missionaries from the Presbyterian church all had to be educated before they could go out, so these were intelligent men and women. So they kept up their interest in their country, they kept up the interest of the history, of the politics, and they would pass that down onto us, including the wonderful stories of miracles that happened. You know, to hear of these stories--

Mark: Oh, that's what I'd love to hear.

Gigi: They were so accepting of us, so as Daddy became more and more well known, they were accepting, they were protective, and you know, the thing about this little community that I always say is that the men and women I grew up around gave me an appetite for what they had. I wanted to be like them.

Mark: Isn't that great?

Gigi: You know, I mean, I never rebelled against being a Christian or anything. I wanted to be like them, but I think I went off to boarding school before my 13th birthday, and in that boarding school, all of a sudden there were pressures and expectations. You know, and so I think there would have been my first experience of, you know, probably sometimes negative experience.

Mark: They wanted you to--

Gigi: Their expectations, people, and you know the other children and grandchildren will tell you that you know once people know who you are or they see you come in a room they have expectations and you don't know what they are.

Mark: Like you might be too spiritual to hang with them or?

Gigi: When I moved into one town in south Florida, my neighbors were scared to death because they thought that I was gonna carry a big black Bible around with me and say, "The Bible says..." in the community, you know?

Mark: Right.

Gigi: And they found out I was normal. I screamed at my kids just like everybody else did.

Mark: Isn't that great?

Gigi: Let me say that I tell people at The Cove, whenever I'm able to share, I say to them, I say, there's not one thing that any of you all could come up and tell me that would shock me because every... I mean, we have a big family. Daddy had I think 45, 46 great grandchildren. Now when you have a big family like that, we have experienced every single thing that they could tell me somewhere, and yet we've experienced the grace of God.

Mark: Yes!

Gigi: So that's been wonderful, but we don't have a Teflon umbrella over our family.

Mark: No, but that's what people think, you got some key to the kingdom.

Gigi: Oh my goodness, we do not have a Teflon umbrella. No, no.

Mark: You can tell 'em is you're just a freak like everybody else.

Gigi: But God's grace is sufficient.

Mark: Yes

Gigi: That I can tell 'em.

Mark: My mother said to me one time, “Mark, when you get to heaven, it's gonna be amazing when you look back." The faces, right? 'Cause I don't realize, and it's a minuscule thing compared to your father, but I think it's good that we don't know all the good that we may or may not have done. Because, you know, first of all I wouldn't believe it 'cause I know me and I know me better than anybody knows me.

Gigi: He didn't believe it either.

Mark: Yeah.

Gigi: In fact, he used to say that when he got to heaven, he wasn't gonna see Jesus for a long time. And we'd say, "Well, why, Daddy?” And he would say, "Because..." One thing that I never, I don't think I ever heard Daddy say, "my ministry."

Mark: Oh really?

Gigi: It was always "our" because he said everybody that cleaned the carpets, drove the cars, typed the sermons, all the office work, all those that helped in the home or wherever, they were part of helping his ministry, and so he said it's gonna take me so long to see Jesus. because they're all gonna be in line before me 'cause I got the glory here and they didn't.

Mark: Wow. That's really profound.

Gigi: Daddy was truly a humble person. I was called one time, somebody was writing a book about Daddy, and they wanted especially to have me tell about his humility, and I said, "Well, I can give you illustrations of his humility and stories of traveling with him and seeing his humility," but I said, "That's just who he was.” He didn't sit down one day and say I'm gonna be humble.

Mark: Oh, or one day I'm gonna be the greatest evangelist that ever lived.

Gigi: No, and he always put other people first. I would take people up there just like Will and the others that live here. We would at times take people up to see Daddy, especially as he was older. And we'd go into his little study there, and usually the person that was coming, the important person that was coming to visit, would have someone with him, accompany him or her. And we'd go back there and they'd start talking to Daddy, and it would just be within a few minutes that Daddy would say, "Now you back there, I wanna know about you. Tell me, do you have a family? Now where are you from?” He always wanted to know.

Mark: Brilliant.

Gigi: About the other person and always the little people too. He didn't think he was important.

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Mark: To learn more about Dinner Conversations, visit dinner-conversations.com.

Andrew: And while you're there, check out our Season One DVD with all of our past episodes and some bonus stuff, as well as check out these cool show mugs.

Mark: Yeah, so when we have our next conversation you can have coffee with us. Let's get back to the conversation.

Andrew: I was thinking about how your granddad had such a great relationship with Larry King, you know? And then we were looking at the presidents, right? Thinking about all the different thought processes, even maybe belief systems, in those presidents' life, and yet he was able to have this genuine, authentic relationship to some degree to all of them, and I think that comes back to what you're saying, like keeping it central. I was reading an interview of yours, someone was interviewing you in Christianity Today, and they asked a question about are we weak, in American Christianity, are we weakening our doctrinal commitments? And I thought it was interesting that I thought, well, could our scriptural commitments, like are we dividing dying on molehills of doctrinal commitments? I feel like I think about your granddad’s approach to the Gospel. I'm hearing what is your approach to the Gospel, keeping the main thing the main thing. Do you think there's such a thing as weakening… Is that a bad thing that we’re weakening doctrinal commitments for the sake of uniting over--

Mark: I have no idea what you just asked.

Will: Well, you mean like become more centralist in our--

Andrew: Yeah, theology.

Will: I think when we keep it focused on Jesus--

Mark: Yes.

Will: That's the main thing. That's what my granddaddy always wanted to do. Now my granddaddy was criticized for it. My granddaddy was really criticized for it.

Mark: By the right and left?

Will: By both sides, mainly the right, you know? The Southern Baptists. And I'm Southern Baptist, Independent Baptist like Falwell.

Mark: So the Southern Baptists were upset with him too?

Will: They would, well, a number of things. One, 'cause he would talk with Catholics.

Mark: OK.

Andrew: Oh.

Will: And he would talk with Seventh Day Adventists. He would talk with Presbyterians. He was married to a Presbyterian. And we joke about that. I mean, a lot of that stuff we joke between denominations--

Andrew: But there were some serious criticisms.

Will: But yeah, my granddaddy’s hair was too long for some, especially for the Independent Baptists like Falwell.

Mark: I remember.

Will: Falwell never criticized my granddaddy for his hair length or anything, but I'm just saying there was a lot of, a lot of heat came more from the right than the left. But my granddaddy, he didn't care. He wanted to focus on what was central to the Gospel, and his rule was anybody who was willing to work with me to share the good news of Jesus Christ in their community is welcome at the table. So when Catholics came, they were welcome. When all these other denominations that he's not a part of, that's what he would, you know have--

Mark: And now everybody does that.

Will: Well, you'll still hear people that get upset--

Mark: But there's a fringe in every… There's always that lunatic fringe out there.

Will: When my granddad went to do a peace conference in a denuclearization peace conference in Russia, he took a lot of flak from the Christian community 'cause they saw it as you're going to, you know, badmouth the United States. You're going to legitimicize the USSR. And my granddad, one, wasn't gonna talk bad about the United States, but he was gonna go talk about the Word of God. And so, but a lot of Christian ministers really got mad with my granddaddy, even to the point where he says when he gets home, he doesn't even know if he's gonna have a ministry.

Mark: He thought that or?

Will: Yeah, he thought that. He thought that ‘cause it had been that negative. And he was worried. I say worried. He knew it was in God's hands. That's all that mattered, but he was wondering what he's gonna have to do when he gets back to deal with because he was taking so much heat, but my granddaddy was just trying to open up the USSR to the Gospel.

Mark: Wow.

Will: That was a closed door for a long time. Your generation probably won't remember it as much, but I vaguely remember it, but my parents, I mean, they--

Andrew: Sure, that was their generation.

Will: They had to jump under desks in case of a nuclear attack, like the desk is gonna help somehow, but you know, they did those drills and so they remember this, and that was a big fight for my dad and his siblings' generation was the red scare, and so here they are. Now my granddaddy has an opportunity to go into the communist Europe and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ, and he was being criticized because it was communism. You know, you don't go do anything for the communists. They're evil. And my granddaddy was opening up the Gospel. You know, Ronald Reagan’s gonna get a lot of… He gets a lot of credit for bringing down the Soviet Union. I think, personally, I think it was my granddad.

Mark: Do you?

Will: Because it was spiritual.

Mark: Yeah, it was.

Will: It was a spiritual thing. Everything was changing spiritually. There was a lot of things coming together.

Mark: Are there were a lot of Christians there at that time, were there?

Will: No, they'd been starved.

Mark: Underneath or--

Will: Yeah, they were starved under communism. They couldn't have churches and stuff like… They could, but it was really restricted. Very hard to preach.

Mark: And he came over and--

Will: And he came over there from an invitation ‘cause, I think it was Hungary, was trying to get into the, trying to get a trade agreement with the United States. And to have that, they had to have freedom of religion, so they wanted to show, oh yeah, we got freedom of religion. Get Billy Graham to come over here, you know? I think it was Hungary. I can't quite remember my facts on that, but it was some country in Eastern Europe that wanted to have my granddaddy there really as a show, hey, we do believe. We want this trade agreement.

Andrew: OK, so it was political.

Will: It was a political move, but my granddaddy seized it as an opportunity to preach the Gospel. 'Cause they didn't think… No one's gonna come. No one knows who Billy Graham is. And lo and behold, it was packed.

Mark: Was it?

Will: Yeah, I mean it was packed. People hanging off everywhere, and it was the first of the communist countries.

Mark: And he gave an invitation?

Will: Well, he would preach. There was no room for an invitation. Well, I say, when we think of invitations, we say come forward. You couldn't do that. There was no stage. People had their tape recorders and doing tape cassettes and hitting record and listening to it and because they had... And the communists didn't know what to do with it. They're like, this is--

Andrew: We've never seen this before.

Will: And they were getting afraid 'cause they'd never seen anything like this, and they didn't think anyone was gonna show up. And so they were cutting the power cords to his microphone and stuff like that.

Mark: They were?

Will: And somebody was.

Andrew: Yeah.

Will: And taking the, or not showing up with speakers 'cause it was just a lot of work. Matter of fact, where we’re eating this meal right now is in my granddad's office. All those details were done in this office, especially a man named John Akers, and T.W. Wilson. They worked hard on trying to organize this, taking trips to Eastern Europe for months ahead of time trying to organize this talking, dialoguing, planning details, who they're gonna meet, what things they were gonna see. It was all planned out, and they didn't know from day to day if they were gonna be able to finish it because it was such, it was such new territory no one knew what was gonna happen. But God used it to open up Eastern Europe, so I believe that a lot of it had to do with my--

Andrew: The ripple effect, dominoes.

Will: But Billy Graham's gotta be in that phrase somewhere because it was a spiritual change that was going on in Eastern Europe.

Andrew: You know, I was in Bulgaria just like a year and a half ago performing at this church, and underneath, I was stomping my foot and something, keeping time, and it was hollow underneath. And I asked in between through the translator, "What's underneath the stage, or this floor?” And he said, "It's a baptistry.” He said, "Because in the days of communism, we had to baptize at the dark of night underground.” And I was thinking like what you're talking about. So the spiritual activity was still there. You can't squelch the Spirit of God, and so Billy's visit there must have been a liberating… These people are starving.

Mark: Yeah.

Andrew: And someone's bringing food.

Will: And it was just like, it was, I've seen it where I go up to Alaska a lot. And they got this tundra up there, and they'll have these tundra fires that will start through lightning or an accident or something like that, and it'll burn and just smolder for months, it will smolder. Then all the sudden it gets a little bit of oxygen and it comes out and that’s what my granddaddy… It was smoldering underneath, but when my granddaddy came, it was just like oxygen to a fire.

Mark: Like gasoline.

Will: And then it kept opening up to other countries. Romania's probably one of the most unbelievable. I was just there last year in Romania, but to see the people that were hanging off roofs, it's every OSHA rule would have been broken.

Mark: Wow.

Will: And people crammed in to the point where it got scary. They didn't feel unsafe. It was just there was such a crowd of people that they were just getting pushed and pushed and pushed, and people were excited to hear the Gospel, and that's what God gives favor and God was bringing people to hear the Gospel, and my granddaddy was the megaphone for God to preach.

Mark: Now when you go to Romania now, are they still showing up?

Will: Yeah, oh yes. We just had a huge one.

Mark: And you're the--

Will: Yeah, I'm the preacher. I was doing a crusade--

Mark: Who's your George Beverly Shea?

Will: Well, I got Mark Christian that goes with me quite a few times.

Mark: Oh, I know him, one of the greatest singers in the world.

Will: But sang for Dr. Falwell for years, and for the Sounds of Liberty.

Mark: I watched him grow up.

Andrew: Were you looking?

Mark: Huh?

Andrew: Were you looking?

Mark: No, Lord no. I could be your George.

Mark Lowry, Andrew Greer, and Mark Christian singing “Just As I Am”

Mark: We are in Billy and Ruth Graham's home, which has been a wonderful day and sitting over to my right is a friend of mine from college who just happens to now be Will Graham's George Beverly Shea. In other words, what George which was for Billy, my friend Mark Christian, who sang in the Sounds of Liberty, one of my dear friends, and one of the best singers. And we are going to sing the Billy Graham crusade invitation song, and if you know it, sing along with us.

Just as I am, without one plea
But that Thy blood was shed for me
And that Thou bid'st me come to Thee
O Lamb of God, I come. I come

Just as I am, Thou wilt receive
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve
Because Thy promise I believe
O Lamb of God, I come. I come
Just as I am, I come to Thee
Oh Lamb of God, I come. I come

Andrew: Yeah, and David was telling us, and actually Mark too, like how your demeanor, your physical presence, your speech is the most like Billy out of, especially maybe when he was your age, out of all the grandchildren and stuff. Do you feel that as a mantle of responsibility, or do you still feel the freedom to be you while in this lineage you know?

Will: No, I… I'm blessed to have wonderful grandparents, you know? And that's always gonna be a part of me. But I gotta be my own person, and I gotta follow the Lord, gotta be obedient to him, not what my dad wants or my granddad wants or my grandmother or my mom. I gotta do what God's calling me to do.

Andrew: It may seem over simple, but if you had, Will Graham, if you had to sum it all up, your life's purpose, life's meaning?

Will: To preach the Gospel. Plain and simple.

Mark: I do another program called Mondays with Mark.

Gigi: OK.

Mark: It's more of a fun... This show Dinner Conversations--

Andrew: This is a drag.

Mark: No, it's no. No, it's not! So we're handling--

Gigi: Issues.

Mark: Issues with artists who are dealing with those issues, or people, right? But this is the most light-hearted Dinner Conversations we've had. But when I--

Gigi: 'Cause you haven’t gotten into our issues.

Mark: Well, maybe, maybe we could.

——

Mark: Hey, Will, come sing!

Will: No.

Mark: Over there in that chair.

Will: No. No!

Andrew: Are you waiting on him?

Will: No, I'm gonna see if he needs a way out.

Mark: Oh, he needs a way out. I love you too.

Mark Christian: Who me?

Mark: And we'll be in Franklin, Tennessee, this weekend.

Mark Christian: Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

Mark: Well, wasn't that a fun episode with Will Graham and his Aunt Gigi?

Andrew: That's right, Aunt Gigi. You can find Will Graham’s devotional Redeemed through our Amazon affiliate link in our episode description.

Mark: And if you want to binge watch all of Season Two of Dinner Conversations, you can do that right now on Amazon Prime.

Andrew: Thanks for watching Dinner Conversations with--

Mark: Mark Lowry.

Andrew: And Andrew Greer.

Mark: Turning the light on.

Andrew: One question at a time.

Mark: Yep. Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

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S02, E01: A Change of Mind featuring Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf

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6/17/19 6/17/19

Life After Divorce featuring Crystal Lewis

Acclaimed vocalist Crystal Lewis shares her story of discovering life after divorce. Counselor Nita Andrews also lends her experience to the sensitive topic.

Acclaimed vocalist Crystal Lewis shares her story of discovering life after divorce. Counselor Nita Andrews also lends her experience to the sensitive topic. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations – subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.

Andrew: It's incredible. Visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

Mark: Well, today's episode is with a precious lady. I'd never met her until she showed up here at Dinner Conversations, but I'd heard of her. Michael English is the one who first mentioned her to me, and he said, "Man, you know who I'd love to do a duet with, Crystal Lewis.” Of course, I had to run immediately and find out who is that? And boy, is she good and sweet!

Andrew: Yeah, she's a real gentle spirit, I think. We're talking about a really heavy topic, and that is life after divorce. We know divorce is a reality not just outside of the members of the church but inside the members of the church, and of course, Crystal is giving us a firsthand glimpse into her journey into life after divorce and how one of the takeaways I think I have to mention in the intro, that God loves us more than even marriage. So, this is a conversation that many of us can dig into.

Mark: And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.

Mark: Crystal Lewis, I can't believe it.

Crystal: I can't either!

Mark: Isn't this fun?

Crystal: It’s really fun.

Mark: When you came around the corner today and you went, "Ahh," you were just so, your personality is so—

Crystal: I'm sorry.

Mark: No, I love that!

Crystal: Uncontrollable.

Mark: I immediately felt at home.

Crystal: Oh, good!

Mark: I thought, oh, here comes a friend I didn't even— You know, it's like Reba Rambo. You were with her last night. She sometimes has said that, when she saw me, and I've always wondered about that, she said, she knew that like, she’s almost like we've known each other in other, not in another life, but ya know, back in Heaven before we got here. I don't wanna say what she thinks. Anyway.

Andrew: He's not going there.

Mark: But when you came around the corner, I thought, oh, I'm gonna love her.

Crystal: I knew I liked her.

Mark: And I've heard good things. Michael English has mentioned you, you sang on his record, to me, and so I'm thrilled to get to meet you. I think you're one of the greatest singers.

Andrew: I concur.

Mark: I just want you to know that.

Crystal: Thank you.

Andrew: It's true.

Mark: In case I never get to tell you. Thank you for being here.

Crystal: It is my pleasure. Thank you so much.

Andrew: A friend of mine says there’s rhythms already set in place within us from the time we come out of our mother's womb, maybe when we're still in the womb, that place us in paths with one another where we're on the same rhythm with someone else.

Crystal: I love that!

Andrew: Doesn't even have to be spoken. It's a rhythm in the body that naturally connects.

Mark: And you know also when you don't. Haven't you met people where you go, my rhythm is really off here?

Crystal: We're not in sync.

Mark: Yeah, I mean, and that’s, there's some people I think you're not supposed to be in sync with, right?

Crystal: I think that's true. I heard that, a similar concept to that, but from the perspective of, as a human growing inside my mother's womb, I grew to the beat of a heart and this rhythm that I didn't choose or, ya know, didn't know yet, and I love thinking about this concept of when we talk about our moms and, ya know, how often we're like, oh, I've become my mother or I don't wanna become my mother or whatever. I have gone through phases of thinking that or, ya know, wanting to be like her or hoping I'm not or whatever. Now, I really do realize that I'm so grateful to be like my mom.

Mark: Oh yeah!

Crystal: She is, that's where I get it from, that never met a stranger, definitely everybody’s friend and everybody just immediately gravitates toward her and appreciates her and gets along with her.

Andrew: Well, you showed me that video of y'all singing when she was playing. She's a piano player. She's a pianist.

Crystal: Yes.

Andrew: Y'all were doing "Precious Lord, Take My Hand,” and she was playing it, I mean, amazing gospely player. So much soul but then she turned and spoke to the camera. It was so natural, ya know. She literally just began to speak right into the eyes.

Crystal: Yeah, there were times where I, my mom absolutely never could sit at a piano and not do what you said she did, which was like, and turn to you, ya know, and start talking or make stuff up and just start singing some new thing, or she always had to say something. As a teenager, I'd be like, oh, you gotta be kidding me.

Andrew: Just play, Mom.

Crystal: Just play, please don’t. And now, of course, I mean, I'm not as bad.

Andrew: New improved version of your mother.

Crystal: Oh, she's absolutely still that way. Yeah, my mom is 74. She has Alzheimer’s. So we've been on that journey as a family together, and I love having her accompany me still, when I can, depending on the audience. If it's a real comfortable situation because, I will tell you, we do all kinds of interesting modulations.

Andrew: So you do, is this part of--

Crystal: Yes, I mean, I don’t know where we're gonna go, and often, she kind of looks at me like, "Tell me where to go.” Or if she's in it, just all the way in it, she doesn't look at me at all, and I have to follow her.

Mark: Right.

Crystal: It's wonderful, and I love it so much. You just never really know what you're gonna get.

Andrew: You know, when we were talking on the phone the other day, you were saying how OK, so your mother has Alzheimer’s, she's about four or five years in, correct?

Crystal: Yeah.

Andrew: Your father's still living with your mother and that your youngest sister and her family live with them.

Crystal: Right.

Andrew: You live not far away.

Crystal: Correct.

Andrew: And you said, what really stuck was you said, "And we're all in it together."

Crystal: Yeah.

Andrew: I'm curious, like what does that look like with a parent with, it’s something we never hope, wish, dream, but we know is a reality for many people with their aging parents. It might be a reality for us when we age. But what does altogether look like, and I mean, are there things, ways your family now exists that you wouldn't have before your mother's disease?

Crystal: Yes. I mean, for one thing, we've all kinda been spread around the country for the last decade or actually longer. My parents, my Dad's pastor, or he spent the better part of his life as a senior pastor in the Nazarene denomination and I grew up in southern California in Anaheim, and he moved to Detroit, Michigan in 1989. So I was 19-years-old, and he took a church in Detroit, and then he was there about seven years and then moved to Washington state, and he was there for a while, and so in between there, my sisters who are quite a bit younger than me, they wound up in Michigan for a while. Then they both came back to southern California for college, and then I got married very young and then, ended up moving, had a couple kids, and we ended up moving to Montana for almost 10 years while my parents were still in Washington. So, eventually, I mean, as in three years ago, we all wound up back in Orange County, California, and it had kinda been this plan that we'd began to formulate once we saw what direction my mother's health was headed in and my parents still owned the home that we grew up in, and so they all kind of started, ya know, making their way back down south. So, for one thing, we’re literally in it together as in physically present.

Andrew: Sure, yeah.

Crystal: In each other's lives, where we weren't before. But also, we are in a constant family text thread of here's what happened today. Here's the conversation I had today. Here's where we're at. We need you to get over here and take Mom to the doctor or we need you to come do this.

Mark: Does your mother know she has Alzheimer's?

Crystal: Yes, but that's a tricky question because we have to tell her all the time.

Mark: She forgets.

Crystal: So, when we go to the doctor or whatever, like, "Why do I have to do this again? Nobody ever tells me anything.” So we're always trying to be very gentle in our reminders because I think that's part of--

Mark: Because every time, it is new information to her.

Crystal: Correct, yeah! And she's functioning beautifully. I mean, she really can play like amazing.

Mark: It's the last thing to go, ya know that right?

Crystal: It's incredible!

Mark: My mother had the same thing, and the last week she lived, we sang together. She knew every word to every hymn but couldn't carry on a conversation.

Crystal: Oh yeah, and she'll sit there. She's a brilliant musician. I've worked with everyone.

Mark: Really.

Crystal: She is at the top of my list in terms of understanding theory, bossing you around when you, ya know, telling you where to go in the song and still loves to do that. But my sisters are very musical as well, and we grew up singing together with her, so she still really fills that role, ya know, for us.

Crystal Lewis singing “Precious Lord"

Precious Lord, take my hand
Lead me on, help me stand
I am tired, I am weak, I am worn
Through the storm, through the night
Lead me on to the light
Take my hand, precious Lord
Lead me home

Precious Lord, you're the one
That I build, that I build my life for
You're my rock, you're my whole, you are my song
You picked me up and made me strong
When my way, when it was all wrong
Here's my hand, precious Lord
Lead me home

When my way grows drear
Precious Lord, won't you linger near
When my life is almost gone
Hear my cry, hear my call
Take my hand lest I fall
Here's my hand
Precious Lord, lead me home

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Mark: You recently went through a divorce.

Crystal: I did.

Mark: Was yours the first divorce in your family?

Crystal: It was not.

Mark: It was not?

Crystal: There are cousins and aunts and uncles and a sister as well.

Mark: So, it wasn't like a big shock to the family.

Crystal: I mean, yes, it was a complete shock because I was married for 28 years. My whole world, my career, my faith, my family, everything was all wrapped up kind of together and intertwined, and so to pull that apart came, for other people to see that that was being pulled apart came as a complete shock because I did a really good job of pretending like everything was great.

Mark: Yeah.

Crystal: So yeah, it did come as a surprise to most.

Mark: What about your kids?

Crystal: Not to my sisters. My sisters know everything about me.

Mark: Or your kids? How are they doing?

Crystal: They're doing well. They're in their 20s.

Andrew: They're adults.

Crystal: They're grown, they're married, and complete shock to them even though they grew up in a home that was not always awesome. But they, I'm so thrilled because specifically my son and I think my daughter as well, but my son has specifically told me like, "I just want you to know that I look back on my childhood with great fondness, with nothing but fondness.” Now, he might have been the creative type that’s slightly aloof and some things kinda went over his head.

Andrew: But there's some grace in that to hear from your child.

Crystal: Oh, totally and my kids are brilliant and they're musicians, and we all get along wonderfully and everything.

Mark: And it's true. It's probably true.

Crystal: We're fine.

Mark: I mean, just 'cause the marriage ends doesn't mean it wasn't a great childhood for the kids.

Crystal: Yeah, something I loved that Sandi Patty said when she was, was she sitting right here?

Andrew: Yes, she was.

Crystal: Oh my gosh. Love her. So, one thing Sandi said was, we were the only two that chose this. Her and her new husband. When they got married,

Mark: Wasn't that great?

Crystal: They were the only two that chose it. I loved that. There's a weird fine line that you walk when you want so desperately to be seen as just a human to your kids, and I don’t know if that's ever possible. I mean, I think as you get older and you become more self aware, you're able to look at your parent and go, oh, they were just, now I know 'cause now I've been there too, ya know? You can't, there's certain things you just can't know until your kids get older, until you get older.

Mark: So you worked on the marriage for a while I'm sure, right?

Crystal: Oh yeah.

Mark: So when did you know, OK, this is not going to get any better, and how did you reconcile?

Andrew: Is there a line? Yeah, that's like--

Crystal: I think, yeah, I think there's a line, and I think that different people cross that line at different times, choose not to cross it, choose to just keep living the way that they've been living and like hope for the best or decide like I'm just gonna sacrifice this. This is, whatever the unknown of making that choice is, I'm not willing to deal with that.

Andrew: That's not pretending though to just keep living?

Crystal: Oh sure. Yeah, it just felt like, I don't know. I don't know a lot of people who have really walked through this that are super, super close to me that we've talked about, a very small handful. And every single person's experience is so completely different.

Andrew: So unique, right.

Crystal: From the others, so you never have, even though you can say me too, me too in some areas, your experience is your own. So, it's hard to say.

Andrew: Well, you know, first of all, I think you know this and we've talked about this but this is a safe place. This is what we consider sanctuary around this table. But too, there's a, I know you've talked about that's not true everywhere. There's a certain expectation, sometimes especially in the culture that you made your living, your career has been in and even the culture you grew up in as a pastor's daughter, right? In the Nazarene tradition. There's certain expectations. Was there a lot of fear that developed, or how did, how do you maneuver that if you're like, I'm about to blow up these expectations?

Crystal: Absolutely, so this is the first time I’ve talked about this out loud with, with a camera rolling for sure.

Andrew: Four.

Crystal: With multiple cameras rolling, yeah. I was very afraid because, like I said before, my life was completely intertwined with, not just from a marital standpoint. That is to be expected when you are married, that's the point of being married. You're merging these lives. But for us, it was business, it was career, it was, ya know, he managed me and was my booking agent and we wrote together and we produced together. A lot of great things and made these great kids.

Mark: Right.

Crystal: I mean, I'm really, really proud of what we did together and that had nothing, well I shouldn't say nothing to do with where we are, but that can stand along on its own as a beautiful thing and I'm really grateful. I'm grateful for a year and a half of therapy is one thing I'm super grateful for, I have to say. To help me get to the place of looking at it like that. You don't have to hate something to move on from it. I don't wanna hate my history, but part of it is, the fact that I grew up in this era where so much was expected of you as far as a Christian singer.

Mark: Right.

Crystal: Where obviously if you sang a certain thing, you believed that and you lived it and expectations can become so distorted. They become, everybody kinda makes up their own. Like well, as a fan, I expect X, Y, and Z from you, and if you're not delivering that to me, then you're clearly in sin, and all of a sudden, you are not who I thought you were and it's like, you don't actually even know me.

Andrew: Know me, right, yeah.

Crystal: But you think you do, and partly that's ‘cause, I came from my mother's womb and haven't met a stranger, and you know, you go all the way back to that. Like I legit enjoy people.

Mark: Yeah.

Crystal: So you give off this impression like, yes, I am here to, what do you need? What can I do for you? Ya know, who can I be for you?

Mark: Right.

Crystal: And you get lost in that really quickly. So, to break down the walls of this box that well, I walked into, I'll give ya that. I've built up some of those walls of expectation myself as well, but then when you start to feel like, ugh, I need to like, this box is really small and I need to push out from it a little bit and people don't wanna let you do that. They want you to stay who they want you to be. That's really tough from a musical perspective, from a spiritual perspective, from all the angles. That's a really hard place.

Andrew: Do you think 'cause your marriage was so associated with that box, that's not your fault, your former husband's fault, whatever, just but you grew up together for one.

Crystal: I met him at 16.

Andrew: Right, then you have this career that starts very young. By the time we knew who Crystal Lewis was, you were just in your 20s, and then that's also associated with the church and some of this expectation, and I'm not saying the church maybe puts on, but maybe a certain fan or maybe a certain industry or whatever 'cause the marriage was still associated with that. He's your manager, he's your co-writer. And then you're saying, “But I got lost inside this box.” Did that add to some of maybe feeling lost inside a marriage? Maybe for either one of you?

Crystal: Absolutely, and a lot of again, I'm working through, ya know, absorbing all of the weight of all of the blame. That's something that I’m absolutely guilty of doing.

Mark: Absorbing the weight of the blame of the divorce?

Crystal: The divorce and just like yeah, for sure, but also just where I am in terms of the things I'm trying to do differently.

Mark: Do you feel like it was all your fault? Is that what you're saying?

Crystal: Oh no.

Andrew: No, no, no, no.

Crystal: But I'm very quick to say, well, it takes two and there’s two sides to every story. Which is true, which is totally true, and I think it’s really important and valid to address that and express that. But again, I'm trying really hard to like, talk about just me and not talk about other people's issues because I don't think it's my place.

Andrew: No, work it out.

Crystal: Like I can tell you my story, but I don't wanna tell it from somebody else’s perspective.

Andrew: Very healthy, yeah.

Crystal: So, all that to say--

Mark: That your half of therapy worked.

Crystal: Heck yes, it did!

Andrew: Or is working.

Crystal: Still working, yes, very regularly. But I was gonna say that I got lost in the fact that I started so young, and then I had this person that would like do things for me in terms of career and making those kinds of choices and--

Mark: Who became your husband.

Crystal: Yes.

Mark: Yes.

Crystal: Yeah, and it kind of happened simultaneously, and I will say he is a huge part of the reason that I became a writer. I didn't write songs before we got together, and he really pushed me to write which I'm so grateful for. But as the years went on, I allowed a ton of control to happen on my behalf. Then when I became a mom really young, I was 24 when I had my first child, so then I was just like, I don't even care. You make the decisions, do what you want. I'm super busy, like all I'm doing is staying up with these kids, I'm nursing these kids, I'm getting onstage, I'm singing the songs, I'm getting off the stage, I'm nursing these kids. I'm not sleeping. So it was like, just please do it. And not that I'm not saying that he took advantage of me or there was some like negative thing about that. It just became, I grew into myself as an artist and as a woman and as a person that wanted things done a certain way really late in life. By that time, now you’ve established these roles of, yeah, but this is my role and this is your role. So as I grew and matured and, ya know, wanted to do things differently, that was a really, really tough thing to untie, I don't know. I guess that's how you say it.

Mark: I'm gonna ask something. Are you going to jazz now?

Crystal: Ultimately, that is really the direction I would love to head.

Mark: Is that because you're afraid the church is gonna reject you because of the divorce, no?

Crystal: No, uh uh, it's not.

Mark: Well, you got the perfect voice. You've got the perfect voice for jazz.

Crystal: Thank you.

Mark: But gospel, we don’t wanna lose you now that you've got something to talk about.

Crystal: I'll still talk.

Mark: Think about that. Now you've got something to talk about. You've got, once you get this all figured out, and I know it's early.

Crystal: Right.

Mark: It might even be too early to even really have had this discussion, but I love the fact that you’re willing to talk about it.

Crystal: Well, I think that I’m finding the teensy bit that I have dipped my toe in this conversation with people I don't know.

Mark: How are they treating you?

Crystal: I have been shocked, pleasantly surprised.

Mark: Yeah, I thought maybe.

Crystal: And delighted at number one, people's response, positive response, encouraging response. I don't wanna say positive.

Mark: Less judgmental, sure.

Crystal: Way less judgmental but also the amount of people that are like, "I am right now going through this,” or, "I just went through this.” Or these women who are in similar life phases and stages as me, and that's been really comforting to know that, oh, I don’t even have to use words to explain to you how it felt.

Mark: You're not alone.

Crystal: To be, to feel like I was down for the count, ya know, and so emotional and so, just

over the top feeling like I didn't do what I set out to do when I was 16. I didn't get to 99 and stay with the same person. That was not my expectation. That wasn't my goal.

Mark: So you don't need anybody to beat you up. You've done a good job yourself.

Crystal: I've done a super good job, yeah.

Mark: And now we need the church to love on ya and invite you.

Crystal: Well--

Mark: I'm serious. People, can't they? Right, we need to let everybody know who she is.

Andrew: I had a friend that, whose parents went through a divorce when she was younger. She remained close with those parents, and my brother was a friend of hers, OK? He was watching someone else go through a divorce. Anyway, had a little bit of a, we've talked about this since. Had a little bit of judgment. This was when he was younger and was like, "Well I don't see why," ya know, "they gotta stick it out. They got a lot of love.” This friend of his said, “You didn't live in my household.” Now, she had a negative experience growing up but she said, "I have seen my parents grow.” She's like, "We were born into a broken world. There was brokenness all around us. There's brokenness within us and without us. Sometimes that impacts a marriage.” She said, "But I saw my parents grow into two healthy individuals. That was not possible within that marriage.” Now you can say maybe it was a mistake to get married.

Mark: You mean, after the divorce, they grew into healthy--

Andrew: Yeah, and she said, "You can make whatever opinion you want. Maybe they should’ve never gotten married. Maybe the way they became was impossible to reconcile.” Ya know, whatever.

Mark: I begged my dad to divorce my mom when I was 17.

Andrew: Gosh.

Mark: But he said, "No, I love her,” and I couldn't talk him out of it. Sometimes you just gotta say it's over.

Andrew: Well, I do think for the health of individuals, did you ever think you’re, when you knew this was coming to an end, did you ever think your spirituality or your faith was in jeopardy because of that?

Crystal: Um...

Andrew: Not what other people told you, how you felt.

Crystal: Not really because I really feel like I kinda had come to the conclusion that God loved me more than he loved the idea of marriage, and not that he doesn't love the idea of marriage.

Mark: Whoa, that's a big statement.

Andrew: But I think that's true.

Mark: Of course it's true, but it's hard--

Crystal: And he loves him, he loves him, he loves Brian too more than he loved, he wasn’t, I don't think that God was so desperate that we stay together that he was like, "Well, good. All these broken pieces of you will just have to stay that.” No, I think it was, yeah, I'm more important to him than this concept.

Andrew: Redemption is real.

Mark: He died for people, not marriage, not institutions. He died for people, right?

Crystal: Yeah.

Mark: That's the way I understand it.

Crystal: I think, yeah, I think there’s lots of things that were made by men.

Andrew: Yes, that's a big conversation, but yes.

Crystal: That we want to say no, no, no, this is ordained by not just the church, but you know-

Mark: Well, I like it that way because you own the woman and you tell ‘em, "Get in that kitchen."

Crystal: This is, yes, I'm not even gonna go down that road with you.

Mark: No, you didn't.

Crystal: But yeah, I mean, I think that he loves me more.

Available now! Season One of Dinner Conversations on DVD

Mark: To learn more about Dinner Conversations, visit dinner-conversations.com.

Andrew: And while you're there, check out our Season One DVD with all of our past episodes and some bonus stuff as well as. Check out these cool show mugs.

Mark: Yeah! So when we have our next conversation, you can have coffee with us. Let's get back to the conversation.

Nita Andrews, Counselor

Andrew: So Nita, Nita Andrews, we spoke with your husband, Al.

Nita: Uh huh.

Andrew: Last season, and we thought that would be the perfect imbalance if we didn’t have you on the show too.

Nita: Symmetry matters.

Andrew: That's right. Plus, you're the prettier of the two.

Nita: Thank you.

Andrew: I'll just say. But you have been a therapist and a spiritual guide for couples for years, including walking people through divorces. When you're thinking about when you walked alongside couples because I heard you say something that's completely fascinating to me but can be a little bit of a touchy way to say this. You said you have helped and really love helping, don't let me put words in your mouth, but people partnering with people to help them experience a mature divorce.

Nita: There are two kinds of divorces, and one is kind of a car wreck where I just wanna do a hit and run. That leaves more damage in its wake, and there's another mature divorce where you really do say, "You will know why I needed to leave. You will know all the different thoughts I have about my next relationship.” Ya know, you will know kind of the closure of this one will go very out in the open. And that's more honorable 'cause it leaves both people with at least a chance to do an autopsy of what happened.

Andrew: And I would guess to move forward in health rather than with a lot of toxic resentment and unforgiveness.

Nita: Right.

Andrew: So, it can seem like, OK, I'm walking through a mature divorce. Some people say, well, you're just condoning it. But that's not, I've heard your heart on divorce. Divorce is not an easy, this is not saying, here's the solution.

Nita: No, I mean, there was a point in the history of the Jewish faith where you could divorce your wife over burning toast, ya know? Things that were just like looking for issues, and if anybody wants to look for an issue, we're all divorceable. I'm divorceable. I mean, if you want to go on that expedition, you'll find a way to, ya know, basically name and, ya know, get that other person out the door. But I think the way I look at it, we do long for the beginning and the middle and the end of a marriage story. We're hard wired for the beginning, the middle, and the end. And so, when it abruptly hits mid way, like I need to be away from you and I want an ex put in front of our name, like ex-wife, ex-husband, when that moment of declarity, you're like I want out, it's a break. It's like a broken bone. My biggest issue with people is like they try to say it means nothing. It does mean something.

Andrew: And to not let it mean something, that's almost a reversion of, I mean, emotional, mental health. I mean, that's bound to be equivalent of sweeping it under the rug, isn't it?

Nita: Well, if you had no bond, then you can go, I wash my hands of this. I never was close to them, so there's no loss if I leave them, ya know? But if you were bonded--

Andrew: You don't get into a marriage without some sort of bond.

Nita: Right.

Andrew: We were talking right before this, right, about two people I had overheard who had both been through divorces in their first marriages who'd been married for now decades in their second marriages and so had learned and also just experienced a different thing. I overheard one of 'em ask the other, "Do you ever get over it?” Meaning that divorce and the other person saying, "Never."

Nita: No, if your souls were knit, you always will wonder how did that story end up? I pulled my part out of that narrative, and now, how did the story end up? But before I ever speak to anyone about their hope for a divorce, I always say, "Have you grabbed the hand of mercy first?” Because that's what matters is that Moses was given the writ of divorce because he knew that two sinners trying to build a relationship, there'd be plenty of times that it would fail. When I was growing up, I begged my parents to divorce. It would've been a healthier relationship.

Andrew: Really?

Nita: I begged them to leave kinda the carnage of how they treated one another. They never did, of course, until I went to college. Like hey, now, do it, I was smart, do it when I asked you to. So there are times when I think that analogy that I use is if a marriage has died and you think you're being noble to carry a corpse on your back for another 10 years and your kids are gonna be better off if you carry this corpse, there are times, ya know, that the medical examiner has pronounced it dead. You've outgrown one another, ya know, there's just such a parallel life, there’s infidelity or betrayal or loss. There's just, it's gotten to the point of death, and it'd be better and healthier to say, "Let's give it a real honorable, clean, honest appraisal and let's move forward to a new relationship or to singleness."

Andrew: Maybe people don't, so I'm single still, and I've seen marriages in my family, and I've seen them succeed and I've seen them fail and I've seen them have to work hard.

Nita: Sure.

Andrew: Whenever, so I know if ever I come to that time where I want to marry or that opportunity is something I wanna seize, I already know there's risks involved. Like I don't know that I'll approach it and think, oh yeah, without a doubt. You told me earlier, like I'm not gonna stick that, yeah, stick that landing, achieve this. I'll come in with it like you're saying and or hope the hand of mercy to say, OK, this is risky business 'cause we're two human beings, but lead with mercy. Talk a little more about leading with mercy. You could even, I love the story of the couple popes ago and what he's saying, I love that.

Nita: Yeah, there's Pope John, I think two popes back. He did what's called a codicil, which is a long treatment of sexuality in the human body. But before the interpreters and the commentators began to unravel it, they just began all their teaching with, "Before we go down the question of birth control and abortion and all the things that come out when you have two human beings that can procreate. Before we even go down that road, ever even get on the road, we're gonna take the hand of mercy.” And I believe that the thing about marriage is it starts out with so much hopefulness. I have this really fun poem. It's about six lines. Here it is. "We are placed on a wedding cake like two dolls, the bride and the groom. When the knife strikes, we will try to stay on the same slice.” Because the knife will come and by the knife, I mean, betrayals, disappointments, ya know, broken promises about finances. Like you said, you were gonna finish your doctorate, and your dissertation still isn't done, and I can't support you anymore. One thing that my husband and I have always tried to get back to is, am I a person that is committed and wants to see how your story moves forward? When I'm not interested in your story moving forward, I'm gonna be sabotaging you.

Andrew: Interesting.

Nita: That's a real important moment and most couples have moments where they just, they regress to childhood behaviors or whatever, and they throw the wrench in and say, I'm not supporting your story anymore. I want this or that, or I'm so exhausted. I can't support both of our stories. I need to take care of me. And that's a valid point, ya know? That happens at times. There's all kinds of reasons.

Andrew: Sure. And there can be space for that.

Nita: There can be space for that.

Andrew: But that requires communication.

Nita: Yes, uh huh.

Andrew: That requires me telling you if we're in a marriage relationship, saying where I'm at, what I may perceive that I need. And then the marriage can perhaps support that or, at times, not support it. Ya know, Crystal, I thought one of the most meaningful things that she has talked about is a friend of hers who said to her at some point, do you, and maybe she was beatin' herself up a little bit, and especially as, OK, someone who made her profession--

Nita: Like a standard barer.

Andrew: Yeah, and I'm a Christian singer, and I'm a performer and someone who speaks the truth, a deeper truth, right, this gospel truth from the stage, and I can't mirror that wholeness in my marriage. So dealing with all that, and her friend said, "Do you realize God loves you more than the institution of marriage?"

Nita: That's where we go to the level of restoration that God is after. He's after individual healing and restoration, and I'm not sure that it's always that you get to the finish line married. You know, I would wish. I love continuity, I love unity.

Andrew: Sure, yeah.

Nita: I love full circle. I love it when you thank me and I thank you and we, gratitude circles, I love intimacy circles and sometimes, there is a break in the circle and it can't be repaired.

Andrew: And our ultimate, isn’t our ultimate desire like you talk about this wanting to be completed, wanting to be whole and how we are drawn back into that or even compelled forward by that constantly. When we recognize that, that's an even deeper, humanity will come into the marriage relationship, but what we want, our ultimate completion is we're wanting communion with God. So, the things in life, I mean, I'm asking this. The things in life that do not mirror, whether they've grown to not mirror or they didn’t mirror it from the beginning or whatever, not mirror communion with God or even like you talked about, spouses supporting the forward motion of each other's story. If it doesn't support the forward motion of us being completed and our wholeness being found in God, that's where our struggle comes in, isn't it?

Nita: Yeah, but I have to, I have to make a pitch for depravity here.

Andrew: Oh darn! Mark won't like this.

Nita: I'm just depraved enough that I could use and weaponize that idea. I could say, "I've got to go forward with God and be united with him."

Andrew: I see.

Nita: "You were my biggest obstacle.” I just--

Andrew: So you could use the God card.

Nita: You could use the God card. Now, we had, Allen and I had to go into marriage counseling, which is fun when two marriage counselors go into marriage counseling. But our therapist said we wouldn't make it based on our need to differentiate 'cause we were working together. I finished his sentences. I don't anymore, really have gotten a lot better. But ya know, there is a sense in which you accommodate that it's two healthy people who will die alone and they will know Jesus alone and they are baptized alone and they learn scripture alone. They have the Holy Spirit telling 'em new things alone.

Andrew: Uh huh.

Nita: Ya know, we are individuals, but I do think if you’ve made that commitment to try, to further the other person's story, spirituality would support that in large, ya know?

Andrew: Sure.

Nita: Spirituality wouldn’t cut against it.

Andrew: Would not diminish that.

Nita: Yeah, it wouldn't cut.

Andrew: Love God, love your neighbor, those are the two things, right?

Nita: Yeah.

Andrew: Essentially, our greatest neighbor is our marriage partner.

Nita: I just don't want my depravity to have a new way to get rid of Al. You're not getting me to Jesus.

Andrew: Right, yeah, I got it. Get your way to Jesus, get your own way to Jesus. I love this. I love the conversation, that we can have it.

Nita: Oh, you have to have it 'cause it's insane to put your head in the sand like an ostrich and say, "Divorce, I don't even believe in it or don't see it or don't know how to interact with it.” Most pastors need a full semester on just the theology of wholeness, fragmentation, and where do they support their congregation during the rupture of fragmentation.

Andrew: Sure, which will happen.

Nita: Fragmentation is going to happen. Yeah, it just, set your clock, it's gonna happen.

Andrew: Yeah. And if you had an expectation and you go back to the pope, every pastor should go back to the pope.

Nita: And hold the hand of mercy.

Andrew: Hold the hand of mercy before. That's the precedent.

Nita: And the person sitting across from you was genuinely hopeful on the day of their wedding. They were as brimming with Holy Spirit hope, and so they're disappointed too. Now, I don't think that losing a marriage is the loss of all losses. It's not, ya know, like your identity is snapped in two or you don't have a future calling or individual witness to Christ. All of that survives the divorce. But I've seen some people ashamed of their divorce, and what they do is kind of sad. They put their children and stepchildren and all the parties in what I would call a jelly bean jar, and they shake up the jar and then they say I’m gonna pour the beans out, everybody's better. Yes! Everybody's happier, let's go to Disney World. And they don't approximate that there's been a death, and after a death, you have bargaining, you have anger, you have, ya know, the stages of grief and loss. Finally, you get to acceptance. But I think kids feel pressured to pretend there was no broken arm, there's no broken continuity. The story's gonna patch up quickly, ya know? We all just need to be honest. It is a severe blow.

Andrew: So, all these things are possible even in the midst.

Nita: Beauty for ashes. I mean, as long as we acknowledge that our hearts yearn for that unity and we're always gonna lay our head on the pillow at night and say, "Oh, I wish for unity.” It's not in a fallen world gonna be my experience.

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Crystal Lewis singing “Beauty For Ashes”

He gives beauty for ashes
Strength for fear
Gladness for mourning
Peace for despair
He gives beauty for ashes
Strength for fear
Gladness for mourning
Peace for despair

When sorrow seems to surround you
When suffering hangs heavy o'er your head
Know that tomorrow brings
Wholeness and healing
God knows your need
Just believe what He said

He gives beauty for ashes
Strength for fear
Gladness for mourning
Peace for despair
He gives beauty for ashes
Strength for fear
Gladness for mourning
Peace for despair

When what you've done keeps you from moving on
When fear wants to make itself at home in your heart
Know that forgiveness brings
Wholeness and healing
God knows your need
Just believe what He said

He gives beauty for ashes
Strength for fear
Gladness for mourning
Peace for despair
Beauty for ashes
Strength for fear
Gladness for mourning
Peace for despair

See, I once was lost but God has found me
Though I was bound I've been set free
I've been made righteous in His sight
A display of His splendor all can see
I once was lost but God has found me
I was bound, I'm free
Been made righteous in His sight
Display of His splendor all can see

He gives beauty for ashes
Strength for fear
Gladness for mourning
Peace for despair
He gives beauty for ashes
Strength for fear
Gladness for mourning
Peace for despair
Peace for despair
Peace for despair
He gives peace for despair

Andrew: So what does life afterwards look like for you?

Crystal: Woo!

Mark: Oh yeah.

Crystal: OK, so at 48, I pay rent, which I never did before. I set up my own utilities.

Andrew: Alright.

Crystal: I have to call AT&T sometimes.

Andrew: This is getting real.

Crystal: Yes, sir. No, but I mean, I was a teenager. And I am not, I was grateful to be in a relationship where it was a partnership and we did all this stuff together, but there were some gaps. I mean, I failed to learn some things, and I'm so grateful to be learning them now. From music industry things, business things, money things, all of that is relatively new to me to be on the flip side, underside, like all up in it. And I love that.

Mark: You do?

Andrew: I love learning it. I like being the boss. I like having ideas and bringing them to life. I think sometimes when, again, pros and cons, ya know, there's good and bad to having like even business partners and people who you can, I think we need people. We need partnership to bring things to life. But sometimes it's hard when you have an idea that you really believe in and all you have is naysayers around you and it's hard to face a uphill battle, to just find yourself constantly fighting for what you think is a great idea. So, this season has been incredibly difficult. I'm trying to do all kinds of new things. I'm starting this vocal coaching, mentorship thing, and that has multiple phases to it. Writing and I've got a bunch of new music in the works that I'm totally experimenting with. Different producers and different friends and just pulling in favors.

Mark: Really?

Crystal: And saying, "Do you wanna try this with me?” Just seeing what's out there and seeing how those things make me feel. That's a huge part of my therapy. I so highly recommend sitting down with someone that you're not related to, and I don't mean over a meal or a beverage.

Mark: Spilling your guts?

Crystal: Like just, ya know, yeah. I like that I'm becoming more self-aware and growing in that.

Andrew: Is there a new connection with your Creator in that?

Crystal: Oh yes, for sure. Yeah, definitely. I think I will be completely honest and say that I'm rethinking everything I've ever thought, ever. And I've never done that before. That's pre, pre separation and before.

Mark: What have you given up or accepted or what—

Crystal: Well, Mark, you can read my book when it comes out.

Mark: Oh, you got a book coming out?

Crystal: No.

Mark: Yeah, 'cause I think I’ve done that during my life. I have given up things that were really cornerstones.

Andrew: Like re-evaluating?

Crystal: Yes!

Mark: Yeah, like ya know, I've never, that hurt to pull it out of the building.

Crystal: And don't you think it’s scary initially to, like, you've gotta find the right person to go, OK, I just, I'm gonna say something and you're gonna think I'm crazy for saying it, but I'm gonna say it. And then you're brave enough to say it and more often than not, that person doesn't go, "You're a crazy person.” They say, "I thought about that too," or, yeah, giving you the space.

Andrew: Well, the mysteries around us are evident. We just try to bottle 'em up and sell 'em.

Crystal: And put them in tiny boxes! I hate boxes with all my heart.

Mark: I love what Paul Young, I think, that's the guy who wrote The Shack, right?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Mark: Something like that. He says, I heard him say this and I thought it was so great. He said, "The only time you'll find God in a box is when he wants to be where you are."

Crystal: Hmm.

Mark: 'Cause we're all in our little boxes. Denominational boxes,

Crystal: Yeah, yes!

Mark: Political boxes, but he didn't wanna be in a box, but he'll get in one if he has to because he’s crazy about us!

Crystal: I love that, mmhmm.

Mark: He will do anything to be with us, I believe. Just like any parent, any healthy parent. I mean, don't you love being with your kids?

Crystal: More than anything, and that helps me be a better daughter, too, the way that I feel about being around my kids. I'm now finally able to look at my parents more. It's just humans--

Mark: You finally get it.

Crystal: Figuring it out too.

Andrew: Right alongside.

Crystal: And give them more of me as they, as I sense that they need it, ya know?

Mark: Well, I love you, Crystal Lewis.

Crystal: Thank you.

Mark: Thank you for sharing your, I don't even know, are we done?

Andrew: I have one more question.

Mark: I'm sorry.

Andrew: I love you too.

Mark: Did I say I love you?

Andrew: No, you said, I was lookin' at her. We made eye contact. No, you just like the reaffirming touch.

Mark: Don't touch me.

Andrew: So, this year, yeah exactly, this year of firsts, like it's just kinda recapping, but I wanted to ask. I mean, when I think about, OK, marriage as a teenager, young mother, career, a primarily Christian music, now single, parent, soon to be grandparent. That's hard to believe.

Mark: Isn't that wonderful?

Andrew: Ya know, focusing on these or experimenting with these different musical things. Like this year, year and a half, two years, whatever of firsts, did you ever think at this stage of your life, at this age--

Crystal: Uh uh, no.

Andrew: That you would be experiencing all these firsts?

Crystal: Never, and I think I’m so grateful to be becoming a young grandparent. I love, I loved being a young mother, and I'm so grateful and glad that I made that decision then to have my children young. I have lots of friends that waited until their late 30s and even early 40s to have children. It's just a different life.

Mark: Sure it is.

Crystal: Good and bads to all of it, but for me, not knowing that I would be here, oh man, oh man, I'm so grateful that I have these grown kids that are--

Mark: Aren't you glad you don’t have an eight year old?

Crystal: I mean, technically--

Mark: 'Cause if you'd have started when you're 40, you're going through it at 48, you'd be a single mom raising a baby.

Crystal: Exactly. Yes, I do watch my niece who's four once a week. I'm her special babysitter.

Andrew: It's a good fill.

Crystal: Yeah, it's my granny practice because, but anyway, yeah, I do feel some--

Mark: Do you know what it’s gonna be yet, do you know what--

Crystal: No!

Mark: Oh no?

Crystal: They didn't find out!

Andrew: And she/he's coming in?

Crystal: Two weeks!

Andrew: We'll have to follow up on that.

Mark: I hope it's human.

Crystal: So do I.

Mark: Wouldn't that be nice?

Crystal: I mean, I like puppies.

Andrew: Actually, depending what kind.

Mark: I've got three. I've got three puppies.

Crystal: I have a cat.

Mark: You do. See, I'm not a cat person.

Crystal: Yeah, I love him.

Mark: I think they're evil.

Andrew: Can you slow down my vibrato?

Crystal: I'll work on that.

Andrew: He gives me beauty for ashes, strength for fear

Crystal: I feel like you’re doing that on purpose.

Mark: Are you really doing that?

Andrew: No, I'm doing that on purpose, but can you even do that?

Mark: I can. Wait. Beauty for ashes. ’Cause I had to do that when I played Pinocchio when I was 9-years-old, you know, he's underwater. Pinocchio

Mark: You know how he’s underwater in Pinocchio?

Crystal: Yes, when he gets--

Mark: You know, the whale and all?

Mark: When I hear myself back, I say, "Oh gosh, the scooping is starting.” Ya know, well. I'll be like Doug Oldham. Remember Doug Oldham?

Crystal: Yes sir, I do.

Mark: Well, the key—

Crystal: I love your tone and timbre of your voice. I think it's beautiful!

Mark: You do? Thank you!

Crystal: It's so rich!

Andrew: Dial it down, dial it down.

Mark: Now, why is he here? I was just getting a compliment from Crystal Lewis, and you will not allow me that?

Andrew: I'm sorry, say it again.

Mark: No, don't.

Crystal: Once was enough.

Mark: Yes, it was. OK, we done?

Mark: Well, I hope you've enjoyed this episode with Crystal Lewis!

Andrew: Yeah, you can check out all her amazing music through our Amazon affiliate links in our episode descriptions.

Mark: And you can binge watch all of Season Two Dinner Conversations right now on Amazon Prime.

Andrew: So thanks for watching Dinner Conversations with--

Mark: Mark Lowry.

Andrew: And Andrew Greer.

Mark: Turning the light on.

Andrew: One question at a time.

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

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S02, E01: A Change of Mind featuring Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf

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6/11/19 6/11/19

Place in this World featuring Michael W. Smith and Ginny Owens

Grammy winner Michael W. Smith discusses the importance of mentorship and leaving a legacy, and Mark enlists singer-songwriter Ginny Owens to share her story and sing a song.

Grammy winner Michael W. Smith discusses the importance of mentorship and leaving a legacy, and Mark enlists singer-songwriter Ginny Owens to share her story and sing a song. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations – subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for Tthe Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift. A gift that will be matched 22 times.

Mark: It's incredible. Visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

Mark: How long have you known about Michael W. Smith?

Andrew: Wow, a long time. I actually grew up with Michael's music, and I remember my brothers were huge fans. In fact, I remember one time my mother took my brothers as teenagers, I was still younger, to a Michael W. Smith concert, and my dad asked her how it was or something, and she said, "He's got the best blue eyes."

Mark: Is that all she got out of it?

Andrew: I think so, but you know what? Michael is a legend, not only just for his music and his songwriting but his kindness and his generosity. He has been such an influential person in my life, even more than music or songwriting, because he was my first employer. He gave me my first shot in the music business industry in Nashville years ago, and really if I think about the links that got me to you, through Michael.

Mark: Yeah, and there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. Let’s join the conversation.

Andrew: Feel free to eat while on camera.

Michael: I'm finally getting to— Do y'all really eat?

Andrew: Yeah, we really do eat. This is real food. You eat.

Mark: It's important. Dinner Conversation.

Andrew: So think about--

Michael: I'm finally getting to do this. I can't believe it.

Mark: I'm thrilled you're here. I love being on... You know, yours was the first cruise I'd ever been on, that wasn't a Gaither cruise.

Michael: That was a big step for you.

Andrew: That was like secular.

Mark: First of all, I noticed there was--

Michael: We had a good time.

Mark: We had a blast. I had a blast. I hope you did. But let me just tell you, that was the first cruise I'd ever, 'cause I'd never done anything but Gaither’s 'cause I'd never had a reason to go on a cruise. And the first thing I noticed when I get on your cruise, there are young people on it.

Michael: Young people.

Mark: I couldn't believe it.

Michael: You loved that, didn't you?

Mark: Yes, I couldn't believe it. And it was a wonderful time.

Michael: The young people loved you.

Mark: Yeah, I enjoyed them. Are you finding that your crowd is aging with you?

Michael: Yes, they are.

Mark: Yeah.

Andrew: How does that feel?

Michael: It's a little surreal. You know the… I met even a bunch of them today signing this book. "I grew up on your music, and I heard "Place in this World" when I was in high school.” And now they're married and they have kids and they're bringing their kids to the concert. Well, it's just kinda strange.

Mark: And when they're full grown, and they say, "My mother nursed me to your music.” You know, that's stunning at first, isn't it?

Andrew: We were talking about with Rick, he said the first time he saw you when he was in college in '83, I was born. You know, so.

Michael: Wow.

Mark: '83 was yesterday. I graduated from college in ’80. I still remember it like it was yesterday. But you blink and you're 60.

Michael: Right.

Andrew: When music, like I think about music, do you remember what first compelled you about music or when you were first drawn to music?

Michael: Church. Singing in church. And then discovering the Beatles.

Mark: Are you serious?

Michael: Oh my gosh, then going to Davidson's record store in Huntington, West Virginia, which is 20 minutes away from Kenova, and getting to sing “I Saw Her Standing There.” And "Hey Jude" and "Let it Be.” And just thought, oh my gosh, this is amazing. It was that little 45 on the little record player.

Mark: What was it about that? 'Cause my brother loved them, and I thought they couldn't sing, and I was into Ella, I was into Frank, I was into, you know.

Andrew: Another era really?

Mark: I was way born late.

Michael: You were listening to different stuff.

Mark: Yeah, I wanted flatfooted singers, Vestle, Dottie. I mean, I liked people who could sing, and to me, the Beatles didn’t sound like they were singers, but boy now, listening to their songs, I can appreciate that part of it. But do you really think they were good singers?

Michael: I didn't even think about it. It was the songs, it was the songs. It was the hooks, and they all were two and a half minute songs. A lot of 'em were, and you got, you were at the hook in less than 30 seconds.

Mark: Wow, I never, yeah.

Michael: Yeah, so.

Mark: That's something--

Michael: Yeah, so and then as I grew up through the church and singing the hymns and then I discovered Maranatha and discovered "Love Song" and Phil Keaggy, and then I found out about Andraé Crouch, that changed my life, you know? And then Live at Carnegie Hall, and I had every Andraé record, so it was the Beatles, Elton John was, I still love the old Elton John records, those were great songs.

Andrew: Was that some because you were on the piano.

Michael: Piano player, yeah. He was playing piano, I was going wow. I remember getting Captain Fantastic, I think was the LP that I bought. But I had kept the Fantastic and Live at Carnegie Hall all playing sort of side by side. Yeah, so, but the discovering that first in my home town of gosh, of all places, finding this record in like a thrift store where they sold clothes and sold razors, and just the bizarre area of things, and then there was a record bin, and in that record bin was this record who had this big huge red Maranatha thing on it, and it said the Everlasting Living Jesus Music Concert.

All: The Everlasting Living Jesus--

Michael: Music Concert, and I turned it over, and I knew it was all about, these songs were about Jesus and they all had long hair and I went, and that's what I wanna do.

Mark: Really, I don't--

Michael: "Love Songs," "Honey Tree."

Mark: Oh my.

Michael: The Way was another band from the whole Jesus movement.

Mark: And Bread, no, Bread is a secular group. Wait, who was the group that said— Who was that group played— No, there was, there was. There was a group that sounded like Bread.

Michael: It was probably The Way, or a Way. I think it was The Way, you know. But it was, yeah, and I don't think Phil--

Mark: Isn't that interesting. We were growing up in the same timezone, right? We're born days apart.

Michael: Listening to different things.

Mark: To totally different things.

Andrew: And compelled by different things.

Mark: And you know what got my attention? Not to get it back on me, but I was 11 and I go to Jones Hall, Houston, Texas, and the Singing Rambos came out on stage. And I was that independent Baptist kinda dead music. And they came out pulling against the rhythm in those Dottie Rambo lyrics.

Michael: Right.

Mark: That's when I said OK, that got my attention before Jesus did really. And so--

Michael: You probably couldn’t listen to rock music. Were you not allowed to listen to pop music?

Mark: I didn't like it.

Michael: OK, that's the reason.

Andrew: So it wasn't because someone said you couldn't?

Mark: No, I wasn't. I mean, I didn’t, I thought the guitars were too loud. Let me hear the singers.

Michael: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: Do you think now, think about you that imagery of you thumbing through these vinyls in this bizarre, that I thumb through cassettes or CDs, and came across a Michael cassette or CD, and then that was something completely influential. I mean, do you think like those, those parents coming this morning to the event about the release of the children's book and the children's record had the same experience you had with the Maranatha record, with your records.

Michael: Yeah.

Andrew: That that influence is that long and is influencing people in the industry. There's so many touch points in our industry where you're the touchpoint. Why someone's a publicist, why someone's a songwriter. And it all comes from--

Mark: And it's weird, isn't it?

Michael: It is a little strange, it's odd.

Mark: Because you don't think, you don't even notice it.

Michael: I don't wake up everyday and think about it.

Mark: No, you don't.

Michael: But then you hear it like I did today and I went, God, You, how awesome You are.

Mark: It really is something.

Michael: Yeah, and you just go, I never knew. So it's a… It doesn't really go to my head. To me it's more like thank You, God. You just use these songs I wrote, and it changed their life forever.

Mark: And isn't it kinda good that we don't know the most of it?

Michael: It is, it is, it’s probably a good thing.

Mark: Because I just--

Andrew: Just for humility's sake.

Mark: Yeah.

Michael: Believing your own press, and getting puffed up and all that kinda stuff. We've all been guilty of just going wow.

Mark: There's nothing worse.

Michael: How many records did I sell?

Andrew: My press isn’t good enough.

Michael: Yeah, so.

Andrew: OK, think about this then, this timeline. So, Rocketown Records, we talked about this, was my first job in the industry years ago when I was in college at Belmont. April Hefner was there. April Hefner was the editor of CCM Magazine way back when. I didn’t have any writing experience, no journalism. She looked at my emails and was like, I think you could write. She hooks me up with CCM Magazine to write. We meet, Features on Film, the same series we did for CCM Magazine, then this idea of Dinner Conversations literally, we are sitting here, the three of us, in a way because of you. You're mentoring people without even--

Mark: Which is the best way to do it.

Andrew: Yeah, we didn't sit down to have a discussion about this, you know?

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Mark: Ginny Owens, you were discovered I hear by Michael W. Smith, is that right?

Ginny: I was. Isn't that so crazy?

Mark: Take me back to that day. What were you doing? What was your life like? How old were you? I wanna hear that story.

Ginny: Well, I was just out of college. I had been searching for a job as a music teacher, I actually had a music ed degree and a legal teaching license, which is very surprising to many people. But I found that administrators were really kind of freaked out by the idea of hiring a visually impaired person to teach. So as I was interviewing with school staff, I also just got a normal regular day job, and my job having to be in basically telemarketing to businesses to setup meetings for nonprofits, so it was a really terrible job for an introvert. But somewhere during that time I got asked to sing in church and ended up sharing some of my songs with a local audio engineer, who passed them on to some different folks, and one of those guys was a music publisher, and he said, "I really think you have something here with some of your lyrics that you're writing.” And so he kinda took me to some of his writers to write, and before I knew, he was just sort of sharing my music with people around town. And so I knew I had a showcase for… Well, I showcased for several labels in town. And I knew I had a showcase coming up, I think it was on a Friday. And so on a Thursday, I showed up for work that morning. At the time, I worked for Vanderbilt University, and I remember just rolling out of bed, I had been late out the night before, rolling out of bed, and it was almost time to go to work, so I didn't wash my hair. I was like, oh man, I hope I don't have to see anybody important today. And I go to work and my publisher friend, who was also named Michael, Michael Puryear.

Mark: Oh yeah, I know Michael.

Ginny: You know Michael Puryear? Yeah, so Michael calls, and he says, “Hey, could you go over and sing for the folks at Rocketown tonight?” He didn't tell me who they would be. And I was like, oh sure. So after work that day, he picked me up, and we go out to Franklin, and at the time, Rocketown was in a little house, just in downtown, in the heart of downtown Franklin, and so I go in the room and sit at the piano to sing. I meet Don Donahue, who is the president, and all of a sudden this guy walks in, and he's like, "Hello, I'm Michael Smith.” And I was like, how did you not tell me he was gonna be here today? So I was just, I was so in awe. I didn't even really have time to be nervous, and Michael Puryear told me later, he said, "I didn't want you to know 'cause I didn't want you to be nervous.” So Michael had heard several of my songs, and he asked me to play those for him. And I think I may have even told him that night that I didn't wash my hair, maybe it was a few days later. I said, "I'm so sorry, I didn't know I was gonna meet you today."

Mark: Oh, that's great.

Ginny: It was amazing.

Mark: And then from there what happened?

Ginny: Well, I ended up signing with Michael's label, Rocketown Records just a few months later, and we ended up making the first album, and then Michael and he would take me and Chris Rice and several other artists out on the road with him, and so you know, a lot of my first traveling experiences were flying in a jet to a show with Michael. Not always a jet, but that was definitely… I had a fear of flying, but that was the most comfortable way of flying for sure--

Mark: A private jet.

Ginny: Yeah, yeah, that'll work.

Mark: I wonder if his is bigger than Gaither's.

Ginny: I don't know that he has one anymore.

Mark: Gaither has the pinto of jets.

Ginny: Oh yeah, I bet Gaither’s is bigger, I'm pretty sure.

Mark: Now, so how has he mentored you? He's been a strong mentor to you?

Ginny: You know, he really was, especially in that season, but just throughout the years, Michael has just always spoken wisdom, and I remember very distinctly a time, not longer after that first meeting after I was signed, when he and I went out for lunch. In fact, we went out for lunch several times, and he would just tell me stories of where he'd been and what he had been through. And then one of the really cool things that we did at Rocketown is we would sit, especially at our live shows, we would sit and play on each others music, so we would all be out. Instead of a concert where someone comes out first and then the next person, we'd all be out there on stage together with instruments.

Mark: I love that.

Ginny: And we did some of that with Michael as well, so to learn from him in that setting where he's playing his songs but also playing on ours and just sharing his heart with us, it was really wonderful to share in that way. And just ever since, any time I see him, we always have a real conversation about life and what's going on, and he absolutely just has a heart for sharing with the next generation all that he's learned. He's a very, very wise man.

Mark: So have you been able to mentor others? And how's that going?

Ginny: I have. You know, Michael really led by example in that for me, but I've taught at Belmont University.

Mark: Oh yes.

Ginny: As an adjunct professor in the songwriting department. But I also do a lot of songwriting coaching, and teaching, and mentoring, and you just, even around the country, as a I travel and I work with different younger worship leaders and folks who are sort of getting their feet under them as writers, and I really love just getting to pour into them, getting to encourage them and be a safe space for them 'cause I was so thankful for all of the wonderful folks like Michael who did that for me in the beginning. And the folks that I can still go to. Man, I still need mentorship, so it's wonderful to be able to get that from others, to receive that from others, and then to give it as well.

Mark: Have you discovered some great writers out there?

Ginny: Oh, I have, oh my goodness. At Belmont, I've just, I was in awe of the talent--

Mark: Really?

Ginny: Of our kids, yeah. We had a pretty heavy, pretty strict audition process in place in the songwriting department, so the kids that got in were just phenomenal.

Mark: Wonderful.

Ginny: Phenomenal writers, so yeah, it's been really fun to see them go ahead or go on to get incredible deals and write songs and, you know, become famous, yeah.

Mark: So you're gonna sing us a song, I'm so excited to get to hear you sing in person, and it's a Michael W. Smith song, which song is it?

Ginny: It is. It's a song called “Friends." Ever heard of that one?

Mark: Oh yeah, the classic.

Ginny: The classic. I mean, I feel like this song is so timeless. I don't think I’ve... I feel like I've never not known this song. Although I know there was a time in my life when it didn't exist, but it's just, it's an amazing song, and so I'm honored to get to, you know, kind of do my own version now.

Ginny Owens and Andrew Greer singing “Friends”

Packing up the dreams God planted
In the fertile soil of you
I can't believe the hope He's granted
Means a chapter in your life is through
But we'll keep you close as always
It won't even seem you've gone

'Cause our hearts in big and small ways
Will keep the love that keeps us strong
And friends are friends forever
If the Lord's the Lord of them
And a friend will not say never
'Cause the welcome will not end
Though it's hard to let you go
In the Father's hands we know
That a lifetime's not too long
To live as friends

And with the faith and love God's given
Springing from the hope we know
Oh we will pray the joy that you live in
Is a strength that now you show
And we'll keep you close as always
And it won't even seem you've gone

Mark: I love that we can get on Facebook or a podcast or record, all of these are just tools, reach the world, and it’s really getting to where we almost don’t have to leave the house. Which is good for us as we're getting older, 'cause really if it’s about reaching people, rather than touring and you know, when you get to the place when you finally have enough money, Michael— You know, seriously, that’s what I'm thinking of at 60. Are you thinking like that at all? Or are you thinking, I mean, you look good for 60, I will say that, and you probably are technically a 40-year-old physically probably 'cause, you know, all the… But I mean, you think about it, you've got 20 years left maybe, or 30. I think about this, and not in a bad way. I'm looking forward to the next chapter. I'm looking forward to dying. It's the only thing I really haven't done. I'm really looking forward to all these futuristic things that are gonna happen, but how do you prepare for it, or do you? I mean, do you ever even think about it?

Michael: Well, I think you have to think about it on some level in terms of you gotta make sure your wife's taken care of, the kids are taken care of, that sort of estate kind of stuff. Man, I think my best work is yet to come.

Mark: Yeah.

Michael: And so, maybe I would feel different if they weren't buying the music anymore, if nobody was coming to the shows.

Andrew: Yeah, and it sounds like you don’t really wanna be at home just on Facebook, you really like being out.

Michael: I like playing live. I like meeting people.

Andrew: Yeah.

Michael: And I feel called, that's the big thing. It's more than a job, it's a calling. And, I just sense in my spirit, especially on this new tour, this Surrounded by a Million Lights World Tour, I don't think I've ever been a part of anything more exciting in my life. I’ve been doing this for 36 years.

Mark: How is this different?

Michael: I feel like the wind is at my back more than ever. And not in popularity kind of thing, more of the songs and the authority, and I say that, I hold that really loosely, and watching God just do things through me to people every night and watching people discover the Father heart of God and who Jesus really is, you know? So they asked me in the Q&A the other day, going if you have one thing to do, if you could just have one, if you had one wish, from now on in the future, just one thing to do, what would it be? And I said, I would love to have the whole world’s attention for 60 seconds, and tell 'em who the real Jesus is.

Mark: Who is the real Jesus?

Michael: 'Cause I think He's been misrepresented.

Mark: Yeah, I do too.

Michael: On so many levels.

Mark: Tell me, tell me like how?

Michael: He's a good Father.

Mark: Yes, He is. OK, and what else?

Michael: Oh gosh, I could go on and on and on. You know, I talk about my dad every night in concert, you know, because I tell everybody that my dad showed me a lot, I feel like, of what God was like. My dad had his faults, I never saw him mess up, but he was for me. He was for me. He was my baseball coach, and then music, then he's my PR agent, telling everybody how great I am all the time. I'm going, dad, stop that. He said, "Why not? You're the best.” He said that my whole life. And so you're having somebody just edify you and edify you. I think God's like that.

Mark: And don't you think that helps you see God like that?

Michael: It does, and it makes me not worry. And it makes me not fret. I don't sit around and just, 'cause I know who I am. I wake up everyday. But you've got people in the church, probably people that have been hurt, who struggle with grace, they still struggle. You talk about Father, like I know every night when I talk about my dad, I know there's people out there who didn't have good dads.

Mark: Right, right.

Michael: That didn't have a good mom, and so you just say, you know what, God will Father you. God can mother you. My mom was abandoned when she was eight-years-old by my real grandmother. She told 'em to get out of the car when she was eight and her younger sisters, Dee and Pat, six and five, and Bill, four, and my real grandma drove off and never came back.

Mark: No way.

Michael: Never, just awful.

Mark: Never saw her?

Michael: She saw her one other time at Pat's funeral.

Mark: Wow.

Michael: My mom just somehow turned a corner when she was a teenager, she just, I think she had a real encounter with Jesus and she thought, if I have a family one day, I'm not ever gonna let that happen to my kids. My mom's the bomb. She's just so amazing. So she turned the corner. She found a way out of being a victim all your life.

Mark: She broke the curse.

Michael: She broke the curse, broke the generational thing.

Andrew: I've heard it said like, you can't truly extend grace until we've learned to receive it.

Michael: I agree.

Andrew: Is that not maybe our cultural dilemma today is--

Michael: Yes.

Andrew: We haven't learned to receive it from others? Or maybe some people have never been extended it.

Michael: True.

Andrew: I don't know. I mean, so how do you come, you talk about how Jesus has been so misrepresented, how through music, how do you feel like you’re given the opportunity to represent better? Yes, He's a good Father, and to say that, but do you feel like music gives you an avenue to express some of the true characteristics of who Jesus is?

Michael: I do as a recording artist, to be able to sing for people I'll never meet, you know? I try to sing about truth and try to sing about, I talk about the love of God in a lot of my songs. My last song on a Million Lights is called "Who You Are.” It's all inspired by all these kids committing suicide and the bullying going on and just this real direct thing, hey, this is who you are. You think you don't have a shot, you don't think you have a place in this world, no pun intended, no face in this world. But this is who you are, this is who God's called you to be, there's a, you are destined for greatness. So I'll talk about those things. On a personal level with people, that's killing with kindness.

Mark: Yeah.

Michael: Just be kind to people.

Mark: Yeah, be nice.

Michael: Be nice, they go, what's up with that guy?

Mark: I think having a father like yours and my parents, unconditional love was easy for me to understand 'cause I knew I couldn’t bring home one note too many. You know?

Michael: I love that.

Mark: I could not, there weren't enough, they couldn't cut down enough trees to make enough paper to write enough notes to make my mother quit loving me, and I knew that, it never crossed my mind. So I think because of that, I can rest, I can believe God likes me. First of all, He said so.

Michael: Right.

Mark: Second of all, how rude of me not to agree with Him. But I think that's the same for you, but what do you say to someone who's watching who didn't get that? Well, you just said it, didn't you? You said just believe it, right? He will Father you, He will mother you, whatever you need.

Michael: Yeah, I tell everybody every night going, you know what, if you don't have faith, I've got enough faith for you. You know the whole, I love the story about the--

Mark: The guy through the roof.

Andrew: Yeah.

Michael: It wasn't the faith of that guy. Yeah, oh yeah, it was the faith of his friends.

Mark: Interesting.

Andrew: I keep going back to like mentorship, but that's kinda like the ultimate mentorship, isn't it? To have faith for someone.

Mark: I love that. I've never thought of that before. That's real good. But eventually, I love you, I have enough for you. I tell people, just choose to believe it, you know? I think that may be kinda the same thing. Have you found people, have you ever had anybody come up and say, "OK, I'll take you up on that."

Michael: Yeah.

Mark: Really, isn't that cool?

Available now! Season One of Dinner Conversations on DVD

Mark: To learn more about Dinner Conversations, visit dinner-conversations.com.

Andrew: And while you're there, check out our Season One DVD with all of our past episodes and some bonus stuff, as well as check out these cool show mugs.

Mark: Yeah, so when we have our next conversation, you can have coffee with us. Let's get back to the conversation.

Andrew: Talk about G-Daddy.

Mark: Oh yeah.

Michael: Great.

Andrew: So that's what your grandkids call you?

Michael: Yeah.

Mark: How did that start? How did you get that name?

Michael: I got G-Daddy, there's something hot in that thing.

Andrew: Yeah, we put some jalapeños.

Mark: Do you not like peppers?

Michael: I love it, man, some jalapeños.

Mark: You like it?

Andrew: Sorry, I meant to tell you.

Mark: Isn't it good?

Michael: It's good.

Mark: This is all organic. This is all orgasmic. I mean, organic.

Michael: The G-Daddy thing happened when Ryan was a little over a year old, trying to call my dad granddaddy 'cause it was gonna be granddaddy. And he couldn't say granddaddy, and he kept saying G-Daddy. G-Daddy, and I went, that’s what I wanna be called one day, when all my kids, if we have, that's what I wanna be called. And so, I didn't know if it'd stick. I mean, it's kind of--

Mark: Sure, I like it.

Michael: I didn't wanna be grandpa.

Andrew: Right, yeah.

Michael: I wanted to be something--

Mark: G-Daddy.

Michael: Exactly

Mark: Yeah, 'cause it's something that might break into a rap.

Andrew: So what is grandfathering like? Or G-daddying like?

Michael: It's awesome, it's awesome. When they come over, I call it the beautiful chaos. It's just--

Mark: How many are there?

Michael: 14.

Andrew: Can you believe that?

Michael: And you know, like we've had 'em all over like the last, on and off, but for the most part the last 10 days. We've had a house full of kids ‘cause the ones that are out of town came in, there's birthdays, and they’re all staying at our house. We're the hotel.

Andrew: Right.

Michael: And it's been fun, but wow, man, it's like, I'm ready to get on the bus tonight.

Mark: Are you?

Michael: It's like the four day line, just get some sleep, you know? And it's great though, but you know, you go to bed, and you go, oh my gosh, what just happened?

Mark: You love to see 'em come and you love to see 'em go.

Michael: But it's fun, but I skew more just loving every minute of it.

Mark: OK, which one you like the most?

Andrew: There's only 14. So how's that different? So how has for you grandparenting been different than parenting?

Mark: You can give 'em back.

Michael: Yeah, you can give 'em back. You can get to have all the fun--

Andrew: Is it simpler?

Michael: It is definitely.

Mark: 'Cause you're not really responsible, right? I mean.

Michael: No, but you know what, I would say, I don't wanna compare myself to other grandparents. I will say this, we are very hands on in a good way. That's not offensive to the kids. I mean, we're just, I'm on the floor rolling around like a crazy kid, you know? And Deb's like, she's, you know, she's babysitting, feeding the one in the highchair, and I'm outside throwing the ball or playing corn hole.

Mark: It takes a village, doesn't it?

Michael: Yeah, and so we're just, we're all doing stuff when we're together, which is great.

Mark: What memories.

Andrew: I mean there's a lot of grandparents who are like, we had our day.

Michael: Yeah.

Mark: Well, starting early helps, don't you think? I mean, aren't you glad you had your kids when you were--

Michael: Yeah, yeah.

Mark: I mean, if you were 80 with a three-year-old grandkid.

Michael: That might be a little different.

Mark: Well, let's talk about this.

Michael: Yeah.

Mark: This is a CD and a book. You have gone to writing children's books.

Andrew: This is the first of a series, right?

Michael: Yes.

Mark: And it's the first in the series. Now I'm sure grandkids brought this on, right?

Michael: Mainly grandkids. I thought about it when we had kids, but you're in the middle of a, sort of a crazy career, and you know you're gonna, I knew I was gonna do it one day, I just knew it. And then we kept talking about it, kept talking about it, and then I ended up going into the studio and writing a lullaby song, and I thought that's never going on a pop record, that's a lullaby song. That is a song that's gonna put that kid to sleep, I just knew it. And then it's sleep tight, you gonna sleep tight. And so then that's when I went to my team and I said, you know, I think this is the right time. So we, it's a long story, but assembling the team, and--

Mark: Have you tried it out on kids yet?

Michael: Oh, my grandkids love it. Now, hey, I'm G-Daddy, but I think they like--

Mark: What age group would love this?

Andrew: You did it just this morning for 600 kids, right?

Michael: You know what, everybody thinks it's like, you know, six months to two-years-old. My four, five, six-year-old grandkids, even seven-year-old grandkids, love this.

Andrew: 'Cause you have characters in it and there's--

Michael: There’s characters in it and so--

Mark: And there's a lot of songs on here. How many?

Andrew: Good bang for your buck.

Michael: There's 20 cuts, but a lot of that's dialogue, and my granddaughter, Harper, who just turned five, she was four when she did it, she is the character. So we're trying to get, which her character's Anna, which is the name of one of my girls, we're trying to get Anna to sleep. And I've been reading her a book, and I said, "Well, I thought you were asleep.” And she says, "No." She said, "I need the nighty night.” I went, "The nighty nights?” "You know, just turn on my night light.” And then all of a sudden all these sound effects you know, and all the sudden, and I’m going, what's happening? And all of a sudden these characters, Eddie Bear, Sandy Lamby and Sleepy Puppy, come to life and start singing, We are the nighty nights.

Mark: Oh wow.

Michael: This crazy song. And then it's just the wild--

Mark: And that's what's on here.

Michael: That's the Lullaby Record.

Mark: OK, I wanna hear this.

Michael: And then the book was, thank God for Veggie Tales, and thank God for Mike Nawrocki. Mike was Larry the Cucumber. Mike really came up with these adorable characters and--

Mark: So did he draw all of this?

Michael: No, but he came up with much of the story for the book.

Mark: Oh okay.

Michael: So he's just so talented and the person who obviously did the drawings, it's all kinds of stuff that I don't like to think about making pop records, but you have to think about what's the colors? How soft are they? Can't be too bold--

Andrew: Putting kids to sleep, right?

Mark: Oh, that's right.

Michael: And then they get the kid to sleep, and so it's just really been a good education for me to kinda understand that world.

Andrew: So it's like continuing evolving. I mean, why is this important out of all of your projects that go on and that you’ve done, why now is this important?

Michael: I think I'm pouring into the next generation, you know? I think there's something about bedtime, and I've known this from reading books to my kids and now reading books to the grandkids, something sacred about that final moment before they doze off, that you're depositing something into them.

Mark: Absolutely.

Michael: That's pure and beautiful, and Godly.

Michael W. Smith playing “Sleep Tight"

Michael: This is "Sleep Tight” from the Lullaby record.

Andrew: Do you have a little of the "Agnus Dei” just instrumental with you?

Michael: Close encounters.

Andrew: Kids, go to sleep.

Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message

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Andrew: Your gift will directly help Rohingya refugees who are currently living in dire poverty stricken refugee camp conditions in Bangladesh.

Andrew: This is the example that has been set for us by Jesus that we would help our neighbors in their time of need. And this is what Food for the Hungry is doing to help relieve the refugee crisis in Bangladesh. So you can give today. Partner with Dinner Conversations as we partner with Food for the Hungry.

Mark: Yes.

Andrew: By giving generously at fh.org/dinner.

Mark: What is the theme of this, just get to sleep?

Michael: The whole thing, exactly. Who doesn't want to get their kids to sleep?

Mark: Oh, I agree, I agree. But I just, each one have a theme?

Michael: Yeah.

Mark: Each one have a theme?

Michael: Yeah.

Andrew: Is it teaching the kids something through it?

Michael: Yes, yeah, and then the third one, we might be, I'm sure we'll do a Christmas one at some point.

Mark: Sure, yeah, will you do "Mary Did You Know?"

Michael: Yes, yes, that’s already on the set list.

Mark: Please, gosh, if I could just get you--

Michael: Has it not already been cut enough?

Mark: I know, I know. When you only got one, you gotta get everybody to get it. You got so many songs, well I get.

Michael: OK, we're gonna put it on the list.

Mark: OK, so--

Andrew: Yeah, Sandy Lamb, Sandy Lamb.

Michael: And see what makes the cut.

Mark: You've done children’s books, you've done pop records. I bet you didn't, did you see that coming? I mean, weren't you doing Christian records and the pop thing happened, or what happened? Or were you going for the pop thing?

Michael: You know, I just wanted to make pop music and sing about Jesus, sing about my faith. "Place in This World" sort of happened, you know, somebody at Geffen Records, when Reunion Records was parting with Geffen Records, and I remember writing, when I wrote "Place in This World,” when I even wrote the music, I remember just thinking, I think this is a hit song. And I don't say that like very often 'cause it sounds like it's egotistical. I just felt like 'cause there was something special about the melody, and then when Wayne and Amy, Wayne Kirkpatrick and Amy, I brought them in to write the lyric, and it was inspired by--

Andrew: Amy who?

Michael: Amy Grant. And it was inspired by all these letters I got from kids just going, I just wanna take my own life, I just don't, I don’t have anything to live for. And I think in one of those letters a girl said, "I'm just trying to find my place in this world."

Andrew: Wow.

Michael: Yeah.

Andrew: And that’s where the song came from.

Michael: So then when we played the record for Geffen, just like hey, just wanted 'em to know about the record, and then, it's Claire Parr now who's working for me, and she was the radio promotions girl at Geffen. We were at a restaurant in LA, all of the Geffen team, and we're sitting there talking, and she looked at me. She goes, "You got a hit song in this record.” It was the Go West Young Man record. And I said, "I know."

Mark: You did?

Michael: I can't believe I said that. I said, "I didn't mean to say that." I said, "What is it?” She said, "Place in This World.” I said, "I think it is too.” I don't know how to do all that, and she says, "I'm gonna fight for the song.” So she fought fought fought and almost lost her job.

Mark: Really?

Michael: Just because she was paying so much attention, and back then, it was trying to get the bullet. You got the bullet, you get the ad 'cause if you get the ad, you get the bump in the chart, and just--

Mark: Wow, there's a lot of stuff to it, isn't there?

Andrew: And then you parodied it, does that make you--

Mark: Yeah, he was in it.

Andrew: Did that substantiate it?

Michael: Yes. Then it became even bigger when Mark did it.

Mark: Oh, you know it did.

Mark Lowry singing “Face in this World”

My hairline's moving
But I am standing still
A chin like Leno's
Nose big as a hill

A face that's perfect
Is always in my dreams
Hope they can fix mine
Without too many seams

That's why I’m looking for a surgeon
Who will work overtime to find my face in this world
My face in this world
Not a lot to work with
I need his knife to help me find my face in this world, my face in this world

A million changes, I want Smitty's kind of chin
All the girls will love my Steven Curtis Chapman grin
Give me Carman's eyebrows, but a bit more overgrown
I'll be a vision, a face almost my own

That's why I'm looking for a surgeon
Who'll work overtime to find my face in this world
My face in this world
Not a lot to work with
Gonna need his knife to help me find
My face in this world
My face in this world

I am looking for a surgeon
Who will work overtime to find my face in this world
My face in this world
Not a lot to work with
I need his knife to help me find
My face in this world
My face in this world

Looking for a surgeon
Who will work overtime to find my face in this world
My face in this world
Not a lot to work with
But I need his knife to help me find
My face in this world
My face in this world

Michael: That video used to scare some of my younger kids.

Mark: That video did?

Michael: Because I die in the video.

Mark: Oh, that's right.

Michael: I get run over by a car.

Mark: Oh no, which, when your kids were little, they would just--

Michael: Go dad? I think it was Anna.

Andrew: We don't like Uncle Mark.

Michael: "Dad, I don't wanna watch that video ever again."

Mark: Oh, that's something, that's funny.

Andrew: I have one more question for you.

Michael: Yes.

Andrew: When we think about, you talk about your dad, and talk about him every night as a way of really mentoring others in the Gospel. You talk about your dad's love for you. Your dad's been gone--

Michael: Two and a half years.

Andrew: Two and a half years. Is that still a point of grief for you?

Michael: You know. I’m... I mean, I think about him every day.

Andrew: You were close.

Michael: We were really, really close. I think I'm cried out. I mean, every once in a while I'll just have a sort of, a moment driving in the car. I think I'm cried out, but I'm not saying the tears are not over, you know? I wrote a song for my dad on the Million Lights record.

Mark: You did.

Michael: Called “Footsteps." And it's a fun song. It's not a ballad. You usually write songs for your girlfriend or boyfriend or your parents, and they're all sad, and everybody cries, and this is kind of a Smitty meets Ed Sheeran kind of a pop thing. And I sing it every night and I love it, and I said, "This is for my dad.” And they love it, it's so fun, you know? Because the whole songs about just, as long as I can see your footsteps, I'm alright. So he kinda really showed me how to do life, the way he loved my mom, the way he loved my sister and I, the way he loved my kids and my grandkids, and his reputation was impeccable. I mean, just everybody knew my dad, and everybody loved my dad. And working in the homeless shelter and everything, so that was my dad so it’s like big shoes to fill. But he taught me how to do life, he just showed me the way. There wasn't a whole lot of like, and give me all this instruction. It's just he lived the life, and I watched what he did, I went, I wanna be like him.

Mark: Now did he die suddenly or?

Michael: No, he had dementia.

Mark: Oh, same as mama, yeah. So you saw him, really, he died twice.

Michael: Yeah, he still remembered, he still knew who was I, which I was really surprised, he still--

Mark: That's good.

Michael: He still knew who I was. And yeah, he, he crossed over to the other side, I was on a plane on the way back from Tokyo.

Mark: Oh really?

Michael: Yeah, it's a long and crazy story, but whatever, I was there to sing, and I felt like I was supposed to stay for a day, and I said goodbye to my dad on the phone, yeah. I knew that, you know, when people are dying, getting ready to sort of cross over, they kinda wait for that last relative. And I remembered looking at my dad, I was Facetiming my dad and I could just tell he was, at that point he was starting to be a bit noncoherent, but I knew he could hear me. I was going, "Dad." I said, "Don't, don't wait on me.” I said, "I release you.” And I said it five times, and I'm just a mess. I'm bawling.

Mark: You're kidding.

Michael: I said it five times, “I release you. I release you, dad. I release you. You've been a great dad.” And I can't believe I’m telling this and not crying. I usually do lose it. But, and then Deb and I got on the plane, and about three hours into the flight, he crossed over. So what a life man.

Mark: How old was he?

Michael: 82, almost 83.

Andrew: He is legacy.

Michael: He would be 83 in about three weeks.

Andrew: Think about it, still through music, still every night in concert, and his legacy living through you as G-Daddy.

Michael: Yeah, yeah.

Mark: Do you ever think about what he's doing?

Michael: I'm just trying to, well, I'm sure he went and said hi to Billy Graham.

Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael: I think about that stuff. Of all the people that I knew that my dad actually met Billy, I introduced him, 'cause I was really close to Billy. But you know, I'd introduced my dad to Billy a couple times up at his home a long time ago, but I think all these points when you're seeing all these things that tie together. I know, I know my dad went and said hi to Mrs. Bush. I know he did, or she went and said, I just, I believe that, maybe you don't believe that--

Mark: I do too. You know what my dad does sometimes when he prays? Over dinner, well, I'll hear him, he'll say, "Lord, pull my," — his mom — he says, "Pull mom out of the crowd and put an arm around her and tell her I love her,” and he said, "Don't you know she's stunned when Jesus pulls her out of the crowd." He believes it.

Michael: That's awesome. I love it.

Mark: Well, I think about. You know, I haven't really grieved, my mama had dementia for three years, and I thought well when she finally went, when daddy called and said, "Your mama died,” and we weren't expecting it. Dementia doesn't necessarily kill you. It just, you take, so she was only three years into it when the Lord let her come home with a heart attack. But when I heard she died, it's like someone hit me in the stomach, you know? For an initial, and I caught myself crying mainly for my dad, 'cause 62 years they were married, and--

Michael: That's a long time.

Mark: And he adored her, but then I thought, man, she's kicking up gold dust. I'm looking at these people, let her grieve. We've got it backwards. If we could really get a, if what we believe is true, and I say that ‘cause I'm a Christian agnostic, I believe a lot, but I know nothing, you know? You know, I don't have any proof, but I believe that they’re kicking up gold dust, I believe the bible's true and all that, on that stuff. So why should we grieve, but we do.

Andrew: I think it's kind of us longing for what we know, what we were created for.

Michael: I think that.

Andrew: I think it is missing that space, but it's almost in my mind like, I wish I was in your shoes. I wish I got to go.

Mark: Yeah, I think of she's off on a road trip and she'll be back. That's the way I've, I don't know if it's psychologically crazy but, and I think when she comes back, she'll be on a white horse, but she is coming back.

Andrew: I think maybe the grief is for ourselves. It's like--

Michael: I think it is.

Andrew: They get to be with God.

Michael: I mean, it's like--

Mark: 'Cause it's so final here.

Michael: It's final here, and I don't get to see my dad here. I miss being with my dad, you know? I'm not ever gonna talk to my dad, have a face-to-face conversation, until either he comes back or I cross over.

Mark: So you will.

Michael: It's the new norm. And so you have to sort of like get the new norm, where it's now I'm taking care of my mom. Making sure my mom's okay.

Mark: How is she?

Michael: She's doing good.

Mark: Yeah, how's her mental?

Michael: Doing okay. She forgets a few things, but so do I.

Mark: Have you walked into a room yet and wondered why am I in here? Like I go to get something, and then I forgot why I go.

Michael: Yeah, I've done that.

Mark: Have you?

Michael: Yeah, yeah, it's more just forgetting people's names sometimes, you know?

Mark: So okay, you've done books, you've done your CDs. Is there anything left to do? Wanna go skydiving? Is there anything else?

Michael: Not gonna skydive.

Andrew: We gotta wrap.

Mark: Oh.

Michael: We gotta wrap.

Andrew: You're gonna dream until the day you die.

Michael: Yeah.

Andrew: It's just gonna be.

Mark: What's that mean? Oh, oh anyway— It's that millennial thing.

Michael: Is that what it is?

Andrew: Do you need some friends to sing that with you?

Ginny: Yes, will you come sing? Will you sing Amy's part?

But we'll keep you close as always
It won't e--

Ginny: Uh oh, oh no. Oh my gosh, okay, just kidding.

Andrew: Take two.

Ginny: Take two.

Mark: Okay, here we go, is that all she got out of it?

Andrew: Yeah, I think so, you know?

Mark: Is that all she got out of it?

Andrew: Yeah.

Mark: Oh, what are we punch drunk? Is that what they call it?

Mark: Well, we sure hope you’ve enjoyed this episode with Michael W. Smith.

Andrew: An old friend.

Mark: Old friend.

Andrew: Yeah, friends are friends forever.

Mark: Yep.

Andrew: You can also find his new record, Awaken, through the Amazon affiliate links in our episode description.

Mark: And if you wanna binge watch the entire Season Two of Dinner Conversations, you can do that right now on Amazon Prime.

Andrew: So thanks for watching Dinner Conversations with--

Mark: Mark Lowry.

Andrew: And Andrew Greer.

Mark: Turning the light on.

Andrew: One question at a time.

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.

Andrew: It's incredible. Visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

Give generously here: fh.org/dinner.

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S02, E01: A Change of Mind featuring Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf

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S02, E03: The Humanity of Billy & Ruth Graham featuring Will Graham and Gigi Graham

S02, E04: Life After Divorce featuring Crystal Lewis

6/3/19 6/3/19

God Is In The Details featuring Kathie Lee Gifford and Rabbi Jason Sobel

Today show host Kathie Lee Gifford dives into the influence of her Jewish heritage, the impact of Scripture, and the importance of simply being ourselves. Rabbi Jason Sobel chimes in on this hearty conversation. Filmed on the set of Today in New York City.

Today show host Kathie Lee Gifford dives into the influence of her Jewish heritage, the impact of Scripture, and the importance of simply being ourselves. Rabbi Jason Sobel chimes in on this hearty conversation. Filmed on the set of Today in New York City. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations – subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift. A gift that will be matched 22 times.

Mark: It's incredible. Visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

Mark: We are in New York City today filming Dinner Conversations up in 30 Rock, Rockefeller Center, at the Today show set, and Kathie Lee Gifford was our guest. Incredible lady. She talked about Israel, her new children's book. It was a wonderful conversation.

Andrew: Yeah, that's right. A lot of lessons in faith and spirituality, but also just her personal experiences both with her family, with her community, with her work life, but also with God. And she is a wonderful sweetheart of a person, and we are so thankful to get to share some of her energy, lots of energy.

Mark: And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. Let's join the conversation.

Kathie Lee Gifford

Kathie Lee: Okay.

Andrew: All right. Well, I wanna start with the children's book, and I wanna talk about--

Kathie Lee: Well, he doesn't want to, so that's a problem.

Mark: I read it this morning.

Kathie Lee: It took you what, five seconds?

Mark: Well, I'm 60. It should take me five seconds. But you know, what I love about it is that you're teaching people, these young people, these babies, to love themselves.

Andrew: And not just children.

Kathie Lee: And not just children. I think that their parents who are reading them this book have grown up. They were growing up with people asking the question, which I think is the wrong question to ask our children, what do you wanna be when you grow up? I think if you look at everything biblically in terms of scripture, we're supposed to be saying to our children, what has God already prepared you to do, and what are the gifts inside of you that were wonderfully and fearfully made in your mother's womb? And what did God see you doing even before the foundations of the world were laid? That's what the Bible says about kids.

Andrew: And that's more who you wanna be versus just what you wanna do, right?

Kathie Lee: Yes, because if God is the Creator, most of us of our faith believe that, and we are created by him, and we are created to co-create with him if we're made in his image, we are here to bring his Shalom to the chaos of the world. And kids, if you notice, kids wanna help. They'll hear about something. They'll go, "Mommy, so and so and they're trying to get and they (speaks gibberish) and this happened. What can we do mommy?” It's natural for these kids, you know why? Because they were just in heaven

Andrew: Yeah, they were just reflecting that Creator, weren't they?

Kathie Lee: Yeah!

Andrew: And isn't that our true reflection? Like, our friend, Patsy Clairmont, always says, okay, that because he is Creator, his like innate character is to create, that since we're reflections of him, our natural being is to be creative and to be creators. So is that part of the book, too, is like saying, hey--

Kathie Lee: Without being biblical about it, it comes from actually my publisher. I'd just written with my friend David Pomerantz a little children's musical called "The Little Giant” based on the story of David and Goliath. And I didn't realize till I went to one of my rabbinical trips to Israel that we all think we know the story of David and Goliath, but we don’t. We think it's a little 12-year-old to 14-year-old, little shepherd boy could go out there and beat the giant who was like, he was like Shaq O'Neal, okay.

Andrew: Who we saw this morning.

Kathie Lee: Yes, who was here today. That’s why he's fresh in my brain. My neck hurts. Anyway, he's a gentle giant, that man. Anyway, my first teacher in the rabbinical way was a man named Ray Vander Laan of That the World May Know Ministries. Brilliant, brilliant man. And we were at the Valley of Elah, and there's the ridge where the Israelite army was and there's the ledge where the Philistines were and there's the Valley of Elah in the middle unchanged in 3,000 years. And Ray basically tells us that the story of David and Goliath is profound because all of those guys were cowering up with King Saul, cowering in terror on that ledge, because they had religion. They had religion. What did David have? David had relationship with the living God. He was not afraid. And he had already killed lions, he had already killed bears. He had everything he needed to go and kill that giant because what's another giant to him? That's the way we should be teaching our children.

Andrew: It's the equipped, right? It's the idea that we are born equipped.

Kathie Lee: Fully loaded, fully equipped for everything we are gonna face if we are in right relationship with God and Jehovah.

Mark: Jesus also said, unless you come as a child, you can't enter. And the thing I love about children, you don't have to teach them to love. They come loving. You have to teach them to hate.

Kathie Lee: If you start teaching them to love too late, it is too late. Because we come out of the womb, I believe, selfish. It's give me, give me, give me, mine. And I think that every human heart longs to love and be loved, but I believe we need to help our children by example, show them how to love. And that's what this book is about. That's ultimately the greatest gift any of us can give regardless of whatever talents we have. No matter how talentless we think we are--

Mark: You start off in the book with talent and passing the ball, but in the second half of what you call a simple book, I think it's pretty profound, you talk about kindness, of things that aren't--

Kathie Lee: Universal, yes.

Mark: I heard a parent say one time, "I don't care if my child is happy. I care if my child is good. And I don't care if they're happy. I want them to be good."

Kathie Lee: Wow, I'm sorry. I want both.

Andrew: Yeah!

Kathie Lee: More than happy, because I believe happy is an interesting word. I want them to be joyful. Because happiness comes from the root word happenstance, which means circumstance. So you can be happy one morning. Oh, it's a sunny, beautiful day. Lightning, I'm not happy anymore. Now it's raining. That's so--

Andrew: Joy is in the belly.

Kathie Lee: Yeah, that is so capricious. What I want is joy that nothing can touch, the world can't touch, like Paul had. I've learned in every circumstance to be content.

Andrew: Can you define capricious? We have simple viewers. No, I'm just kidding.

Kathie Lee: I misused the word. Even when I said it, I just thought capricious. Never go over two syllables. Not with you guys.

Andrew: Cheers. Where's your mug?

Kathie Lee: Is it the Today show mugs? Welcome to the Rockefeller Center, to the Today show. We're surrounded by--

Andrew: By your book.

Kathie Lee: Illustrations by Julia Seal. I've never met her. This is the third time I've done a children's book with somebody that does these beautiful illustrations, and I don't know--

Andrew: You've never met them?

Kathie Lee: No, but I fell in love with her work the minute I saw her. You get to choose from a bunch of different people and just this little girl, especially look at that one where she's got just, it's so simple. She's got two little dots, her eyes, and a little scrawl for a nose and a mouth. But look at the wonder in her face.

Andrew: Well, this artist's giftedness and the way it resonates with others, that's what I think about. So you look at a line up of artists and what this woman has been created to do suddenly resonates within a place and who you don't even know, you know?

Kathie Lee: That's the whole point of this. I think back on my life and what I couldn't stop doing when I was little kid. I was putting on shows. I came out of my mother's womb with a rim shot and a pratfall. And that's all I've ever wanted to do all my life, and that's what I'm still doing. That's what God intended me to do. So we make a mistake as parents when we see what our children are like in their early stages of development. And say maybe we see them dancing. We think, they can't make a living dancing, so we better get them off that. Better get them to dentistry. No, they're not interested in dentistry.

Mark: You would make a horrible dentist.

Kathie Lee: I would be a terrible dentist! A terrible dentist.

Andrew: You have nice teeth though.

Kathie Lee: Well, because I have a great dentist.

Mark: Who doesn't do pratfalls.

Kathie Lee: No, he doesn't, he doesn’t. You know what I'm saying? Let them be what God created them to be, and get out of the way.

Mark: Exactly.

Andrew: Okay, since in 2018, we are living in the midst of very me-driven culture. But you are saying there's a certain element, a focusing on me that is healthy. Like, how are you truly selfless while also being focused on like what is my gift and finding that and then giving that out?

Kathie Lee: We've got that confused because Jesus said, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” So he was not putting down self love. He was saying, listen, you get up in the morning and you feed your body. You get up in the morning and you put on a coat when it's cold. You're loving yourself, you're caring for yourself. We're supposed to do that for our neighbor. We pass somebody that's hungry, we're supposed to feed them the way we got fed that day. We're supposed to put a coat on a, take it off our own body and put it on that person because we can afford another one. That's the way Jesus wants us to live.

Mark: Let me ask you something. You were raised, you're Jewish, and I just recently found out I was 11% Jewish.

Kathie Lee: You okay with that?

Mark: I am thrilled.

Kathie Lee: Mazel Tov.

Mark: Thank you. I tell everybody it's the Jesus in me.

Kathie Lee: Or the Judas.

Andrew: Only 11%.

Mark: I did the 22andMe and I--

Kathie Lee: Is it 22andMe, 23?

Mark: 23andMe.

Kathie Lee: 23. That's a part of the movie that I just have coming up.

Mark: Have you ever done that, done the DNA?

Kathie Lee: No, but my son just did it. I haven't talked about him yet--

Andrew: I wonder what he found out.

Kathie Lee: I'm a little worried.

Mark: Wouldn’t it be funny if he found out you weren't even Jewish.

Kathie Lee: Oh no, my mother had it done a long time ago. She knows her children are because my father is Jewish.

Mark: My great grandmother was 100% Jewish, and we never knew it.

Kathie Lee: Because there was a stigma for many, many years. There's a lot of anti-Semitism to this day.

Mark: Do Jews have that--

Kathie Lee: My father, when he was 13-years-old, grew up in Annapolis, Maryland, he remembers walking by, my daddy had asked Jesus into his heart when he was 8-years-old at a black little church for vacation bible school. He asked Jesus into his heart when he was 8-years-old. Now it's all these years later, he's walking along Capital Street in Annapolis, Maryland. People start throwing stones, stoning him, calling him a Jew killer because his name was Aaron Epstein.

Andrew: Because he became a Christian?

Kathie Lee: No, they didn't know about it. Just because he's Jewish.

Andrew: His Jewish heritage.

Kathie Lee: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: Really? You know, you've had this, I don't know if you wanna call it obsession, but with the Holy Land, with the homeland since you were young. I mean, we've all been to the Holy Land, but you've been 17, 18, what is it?

Kathie Lee: I started going when I was 17-years-old.

Mark: What did you love most about it?

Kathie Lee: Everything, everything, everything but Tel Aviv. I land there and I go, There is nothing I’m gonna learn in Tel Aviv regarding where I come from and why I'm here. You're gonna have a good time. You go to Jerusalem to pray, you go to Tel Aviv to play.

Andrew: Sure, sure.

Kathie Lee: And it's a very, very secular city. So I just land there. But everything else is just fascinating to me beyond words.

Mark: Is there any place left you haven't seen in Israel?

Kathie Lee: I'm sure, yeah, sure. I mean, you have your favorites but--

Mark: What's your favorite?

Kathie Lee: It depends. When I'm in Capernaum, it's Capernaum. When I'm in Gedi, where David hid in the caves, it's in Gedi. When I'm in the Garden of Gethsemane, if I had to choose one, it would be the Garden of Gethsemane. If I had to choose one.

Andrew: One of the most vulnerable positions--

Mark: Have you ever thought about hosting a tour? It sounds like you could lead one.

Kathie Lee: That's what I say in the very beginning of The Rock, The Road and the Rabbi. I said, I am not a biblical scholar. I have too much respect for real— I know enough to bring them, I don't know enough to--

Andrew: To teach them, yeah.

Kathie Lee: And that's why I did the book with one of my dear friends, Rabbi Jason Sobel, who's a messianic rabbi. I could study the western way of reading the Bible for 50 years and not know what that man learned the first year in Yeshiva school.

Andrew: What do you think unlocked that for him?

Kathie Lee: Okay, here's it. First of all, the Bible is not a western book. It is not a western book. It is a story about middle easterners written by middle easterners, and you've got to understand when it was written and by whom it was written and to who.

Andrew: Yeah, right, context.

Kathie Lee: You've got to understand it culturally. Context is so important. Second of all, the Bible as we know it is written in Hebrew, the ancient Hebrew in the Old Testament; the ancient Greek in the New Testament. The only two modern languages today that were ancient languages and have existed and still exists today that have never changed, Hebrew and Greek. God has sustained his perfect Word by sustaining those two languages all these years, millennia, millennia. Here's the problem. Most of the translations of the Bible are flawed beyond belief, flawed. And that's what you learn when you study the original Greek and the original Hebrew.

Andrew: Well, there's a lot of us in it, right? I mean, a lot of--

Kathie Lee: I'll give you a perfect example. This one drives me crazy. If I asked you guys what did Jesus do, like his earthly father Joseph did before he became a rabbi, when he turned 30-years-old? What did he do for a living?

Andrew: He was a carpenter.

Kathie Lee: Yeah, guess what.

Andrew: You don't wanna say it. It's wrong?

Kathie Lee: It's wrong.

Mark: Well, what is it?

Kathie Lee: There was no buildable wood in Israel in the first century.

Mark: Well, where did we get that?

Kathie Lee: I'll tell you where you got it, and you're gonna get mad. And you're gonna say, then why didn't anybody ever tell me?

Mark: All right.

Kathie Lee: All right. It's in the Bible. It talks about it in the New Testament what Joseph and Jesus did. When the New Testament was translated into English for the King James Version, English guys did the translation. They knew Greek, right? They knew Greek. They knew that the word used in the New Testament was tekton. T-E-K-T-O-N. Translated, it means builder/architect. Now we know that Jesus in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and everything was created through the Word and all of that.

Andrew: Sure, John 1, yeah.

Kathie Lee: So we know Jesus was one of the architects, along with the Holy Spirit and the Father of all of creation. All right, so Jesus fits the architect part, right? Then it says builder. Well, here's the problem. You know your scripture enough, guys. You know that all the big wood of Herod's or anybody else's construction sites in first century AD Israel came down from where? Lebanon. The cedars of Lebanon were cut down, made into rafts, floated along the Mediterranean Sea and then brought to Joppa, which is modern day Tel Aviv except just south of there, broken up and carried over land to the different places where construction sites were happening. Jesus was not…

Mark: So he was a stone mason?

Kathie Lee: Thank you! There was nothing but rocks if you go to Israel today. There's 99%--

Mark: You're welcome!

Kathie Lee: You're welcome!

Andrew: Look in that camera and say, King James Version is false.

Mark: No, don't.

Kathie Lee: Let me just say, I’m gonna get a lot of people mad at me because people love their King James Version. And you know what, it's because they just don't realize--

Andrew: We're making a God of something--

Kathie Lee: Well, of course it did!

Mark: Who would not love something that would tell us about Jesus?

Kathie Lee: How about let's find out the truth about Jesus?

Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message

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Andrew: It's an incredible opportunity we have, and I think of Jesus’ own words in Matthew 25 when he says, "What you have done to the least of these, you have done unto me.” So give today at fh.org/dinner.

Mark: To learn more about Dinner Conversations, visit dinner-conversations.com.

Andrew: And while you're there, check out our Season One DVD with all of our past episodes and some bonus stuff, as well as check out these cool show mugs.

Mark: Yeah, so when we have our next conversation, you can have coffee with us. Let's get back to the conversation.

Rabbi Jason Sobel

Andrew: So Rabbi Jason, or what do I call you?

Rabbi Jason: That's fine, that's fine.

Andrew: Rabbi Sobel Jason?

Rabbi Jason: No, Rabbi Jason is good.

Andrew: Okay, okay. I always think of like growing up in the baptist church, it was pastor, preacher whoever, brother.

Rabbi Jason: Yeah, brother.

Andrew: Brother.

Rabbi Jason: Brother Sobel. Glad to have Brother Sobel here. Now Brother Sobel, he's a Yankee and a Jew, but we love him. That happened to me.

Andrew: Seriously, down south?

Rabbi Jason: And we love him anyway. He's a Yankee. And being a Jew wasn’t bad, but the Yankee part, that War of Northern Aggression never officially ended.

Andrew: The Jew was the lesser offense--

Rabbi Jason: Brothers of the confederacy.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah, let’s talk about all that. We're talking about the lens we read scripture through, right? Okay, okay. So let's go to the Jew aspect, okay? The Jewish aspect, because I think a large part of what you offer, I think not just through your heritage but through your experience and research and study, is digging into scripture, the Jewish roots of scripture. But I am curious. So if I'm thinking me as a Christian, a disciple of Jesus in 2018, what of importance do you feel like is revealed to me or do I discover by digging into those Jewish roots of scripture?

Rabbi Jason: I think there's a few things. I mean, number one, I'll never forget a number of years ago right before the Super Bowl, I went out and had to have a high-definition television. I watched the whole game and I'm like, "This isn't that great.” Until the end of the game, I flipped through the channels during the commercial and I realized there was a difference between standard definition and high definition channels, and I watched the whole game in standard definition. And then I got to the high definition, I'm like, "Well, this really does make a difference.” And I do, I think there's a richness, there is a clarity, there are details that you just don't get when you don't read it from that perspective. And it's like what Jesus did on the road to Emmaus, where he opened the Torah, the writing of the prophets, and showed how all these things pointed to him, and their hearts burned within them.

Andrew: I love you said it, because we're looking from without it. Like you think about scripture as, my brother always said, who's a minister, and the Bible especially culturally today we go back and forth about conversations of why is it important, is it important, all this kind of conversation. And he said, "What I feel like is of utmost importance, regardless of any other angle or opinion, about reading scripture is that it is our greatest revelation, written revelation of who God is.” It may be even that the compelling desire to know God is already within us, but then it sets it on fire. Can you think of like if I'm learning to look at scripture through a Jewish context or perspective, what would be one or two things of like utmost importance?

Rabbi Jason: Yeah, I mean I think there’s a lot of different things. I think first of all, just looking at the scriptures and connecting the old and new, there's a sense of wonder, right? I think the thing, when you read it from the Jewish roots perspective, there is a depth and a richness to the way that you read the scripture that kind of blows your mind. So for example, the first miracle that Jesus performs is the turning of the water into wine. Well, why is that the first miracle that he performs? Well, what's the first miracle that Moses performs? He turns the water into blood. Jesus doesn't come to bring death, he comes to bring life. What's the sign of the life of the messianic kingdom? It's the new wine. That he came that we might have life and have it more abundantly. He's greater than Moses. He does the miracle with six stone pots. If there's a detail in the scriptures or a number that’s there, you better believe that they're significant. So six stone pots, why? Because man was created on the sixth day. In Jewish thought, he fell on the sixth day, he lost six things as a result of the fall. When Jesus comes, he comes to restore it, six stone pots. When he dies, he dies on Good Friday, which on the Hebrew calendar is the sixth day. So the same day we were created and fell is the same day that he dies. He dies on the cross. Why a cross? Christians don't even think why do we have this symbol because how did sin enter the world? Man stole from a tree. God put back on the tree for you and me to make a redemption or correction for the sin of the first man and woman. He has a crown of thorns on his head. Why? Because what's the curse of creation? That the ground is gonna produce thorns and thistles. He literally takes the curse of creation on himself to reverse it and to restore the blessing.

Andrew: Okay, so hold on. So first, it's kind of a broad question, you don't just state, like it's not all hocus pocus, it's not coincidence, it's not just happenstance. You think that all this is intricately woven by God. This is connected?

Rabbi Jason: Absolutely. I think that when you look at how the New Testament authors interpret scriptures, how they take messianic prophecies from the Hebrew scriptures and apply it in the gospels themselves, this is exactly what they're doing. They are looking before the connections between the old and the new. But I also think there’s a sense of creativity that we're called to bring to the text. I think yes, there is of course the historical grammatical hermeneutical approach of the text, but I think the spirit of God is a spirit of creativity. And I think that the scriptures are shallow enough that anyone can swim in them, wade in them, but they're deep enough that you could never explore the depths of them. And that's part of like the prayer of the Psalms. "Open my eyes that I might see the wonders in your Word.” There are wonders untold that God wants to open our eyes and to be able to see these connections. And that's part of the beauty of it.

Andrew: Some of the endless nature of the possibility of the endless nature of these connections is also the possibility that endless nature, and not just possibility but I believe the truth of the infinite character of God, right? That he is our exploration, our search for who he is.

Rabbi Jason: God's Word is inexhaustible. There's infinite wisdom and understanding in the Word because God is an infinite God.

Andrew: So it's more than just this. Like, seeing the connectivity is a way of seeing really the design of creation and the intentionality of God connecting us?

Rabbi Jason: Exactly. Another aspect of why it’s significant to understand the roots is found in Matthew. It says, "What can a scribe who understands the kingdom of God be compared to like a household the brings forth new and old treasures.” And when that first popped out at me was one of the parables that Jesus told, I realized that so many Jews are settling for the old treasures, and so many Christians are settling for the new. But the full inheritance is when the old and the new come together. That is the fullness.

Andrew: So the new doesn't like negate the old, or it doesn't kind of trump it?

Rabbi Jason: Absolutely not.

Andrew: It's more of a fullness of that. I guess I can preach it that way.

Rabbi Jason: Absolutely. And when we talk about why this is significant to understand, the Hebraic roots of the text, I think that you can't really understand the historical and cultural context in which the scriptures occur without understanding the Jewish roots of the faith. And you just can't get the full picture. So for example, what is one of the most famous pictures of Jesus? It's da Vinci's "The Last Supper.” Well, what type of bread are they eating in that picture?

Andrew: I have no idea, in everything they--

Rabbi Jason: Fluffy loaves of white bread. If there's anything you don't eat at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, it is fluffy loaves of white bread.

Andrew: Right, yeah, yeah.

Rabbi Jason: What are they eating as the main course? They're eating fish. Well, what should they be eating? Lamb, because it's the Passover lamb. But they're eating fish, because he's a nice Catholic boy and they eat fish on Fridays during Lent.

Andrew: Interesting. Besides that, I think he's got blue eyes and--

Rabbi Jason: Yeah, I mean, he's European, they're eating at a table, they're not… So the thing is, you can't fully understand what Jesus is doing on the cross if you don't understand, or even "The Last Supper,” if you don't understand the symbolism that goes into the Passover.

Andrew: I mean, some people, I’m just playing devil's advocate, some people would say this is kind of like mystics, they'd be like looking for things. And if you look for something, you're gonna find connectivity, which maybe that just further proves your point, I don't know. I mean, does this point back to love, like this idea that God lovingly is showing us?

Rabbi Jason: Yeah, I mean, I think it shows a couple of things. I think, one, it shows us that God is very much into the details.

Andrew: Okay, which means he cares.

Rabbi Jason: Which means he cares. Like when God is in the details, he cares. He's part of this master plan. And I think part of what it communicates to us really is a message of hope, because hope is the belief that your future is gonna be better than your past. But hope in part is rooted in the idea that God is in control.

Andrew: Right, right, right.

Rabbi Jason: Because God is in control, you can have hope that he can work all things out together for good. But knowing that he worked all of these details together in such a a precise and intricate way is something that's amazing, but it's not something we're just making up because these are things Jewish people have understood for thousands of years. It's just that Christians are so divorced from the Jewish context in which it occurred that they don't understand these things.

Andrew: Do you think it’s perilous that Christians are not more connected to that Jewish perspective or understanding?

Rabbi Jason: Part of the challenge of Christianity is I feel like there's such an over-spiritualization where the focus becomes on just trying to get people into heaven and focus on the spiritual side of faith, where the Great Commission is go and make disciples of all nations. And part of that discipleship involves the body and the soul. It involves heaven and earth. And the beauty of being connected to the Jewish roots is saying the Jewish roots is a very physical earthly reality. God cares about what we eat. He cares about how we treat the poor. He cares about how we embody our faith in very tangible ways because Jesus was the word of God embodied in flesh and blood. And there's an embodiment of faith like the embodiment of God that's lost when we disconnect from the roots of our faith.

Andrew: Which I think is bad theology and a lack of understanding of God's integration into our lives. We're biding our time. When we get to heaven, when we get to heaven, it's all gonna be okay. But that then diminishes my responsibility here and now to help make things okay, which I think is part of bringing the kingdom of God--

Rabbi Jason: Yeah, absolutely. There's a prayer, Tikkun olam, to repair the world under the sovereignty of God. And we're called to transform the world and to, in partnership with God, by the power of his spirit, we're called to change the world around us. In fact, what I'd say is that the body of Messiah, the "church," are meant to be, believers lives, are meant to be a sneak preview of the coming Kingdom. So whatever is not in the Kingdom should not be in our lives. Whatever is in the Kingdom should be in our lives. We can't be racist because there's no racism in heaven. We have to be concerned about the poor because there's no poverty in heaven. We need to be concerned about the sick because there's no sick in heaven. If the goal is new heavens and new earth, then our goal has to be concerned about this earth as we wait for that to come.

Mark: What do you think the truth is?

Kathie Lee: The truth is that he was a stone mason. The truth is that he worked with--

Mark: I mean, is that that important?

Kathie Lee: Yes, I'll tell you why it's that important.

Mark: Okay, tell me.

Andrew: Back down.

Kathie Lee: Because if we're wrong about that, what else are we wrong about? If we can get something that's simple wrong, what else are we getting wrong— All right, yeah, okay, a lot of people just discount the Bible completely because they say, "Why should I read that 5,000-year-old dusty book about all this stuff? Look how thick it is, because I know right away from the story in Genesis that the world wasn't made in six days and then God rested. I mean, we know the earth is billions of years old. So why should I waste my time?” People discount it. They also discount that I don't wanna be afraid of God. Why should I be afraid of God? The word fear is used so often.

Andrew: Yeah, talk about that, I read about that--

Kathie Lee: I'll tell you about all of them. Okay, the New Testament, women say, "Why should I follow the New Testament when it talks about how I'm supposed to be subservient to my husband? Uh-uh," you know? So I'll take them in order, and I'll make them very quickly. The word for day in the Old Testament in the Hebrew is yom, Y-O-M. But it can mean several different things depending on how it is used, okay? The word yom means basically a period of time with a distinct beginning and a distinct end. It can be a solar 24-hour day, or it can mean a year is 1,000 years to God, a moment. It's nothing to God of all eternity and all of creation.

Andrew: Yeah, what do we know of time.

Kathie Lee: Yeah, time is nothing to God, it's everything to us. But we know from the Genesis story that the sun and the moon were not created until the fourth what, yom. So how can it be a solar day?

Andrew: We have no idea then.

Kathie Lee: We don't know. We've been told, and then you say, "Well, then I can't believe in anything in science."

Mark: I mean, do you have to know everything?

Andrew: That opens us up--

Mark: The whole thing I'm learning about God, because I'm a recovering fundamentalist.

Kathie Lee: I am a fundamentalist. I want the real fundamentals, not the stuff I've been taught in church that's not true.

Andrew: So legalism.

Mark: Yeah, the legalism. So I'm discovering the mystery of God that he's the Father, I'm the kid. I don't understand the mortgage, but I get to live in the house.

Kathie Lee: I understand that, and I think that's a wonderful thing. I'm the complete opposite of you. If I'm gonna build...

Mark: You have to know everything?

Andrew: Oh, I like you.

Kathie Lee: No, I don't have to know everything. I have to know that what I’m learning and reading is true. The Bible says, "As for God, his way is perfect. The Word of the Lord is flawless.” That I can build my life on. But if I'm reading a translation that is not true, that is flawed, I'm not gonna get the power from the Word that I need in everyday life.

Andrew: Hang on, hang on--

Kathie Lee: You study what the Word really means in the Old Testament.

Mark: Do you read the Greek and Hebrew?

Kathie Lee: Yeah, I study what--

Mark: Do you know it?

Kathie Lee: I don't know how to read Greek or Hebrew.

Mark: Then how can you know?

Kathie Lee: Because you can Google. What does the word tekton mean in Ephesians? There's no excuse.

Andrew: We go off all the time on stuff that we've just been told without doing research.

Kathie Lee: We don't do the research.

Andrew: But I think your research is a way of opening up sooner though, because when you're talking about time, you're talking about yom, right, yom--

Kathie Lee: You wanna go on to fear?

Andrew: Well, I do, but when you're talking about that, when you're talking about any of these things, it opens us up to an element of surrender because it opens us up to mystery. It's saying we don't know everything by--

Kathie Lee: We're never gonna know everything, and I love the mystery of God. But we have no excuse for this kind of--

Mark: For knowing he was a stone mason?

Kathie Lee: No, why perpetuate something that isn't true when Jesus then says, “Upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” Gates of hell is a real place. That's a literal place near the Syrian border in the north of Israel, that they thought that they would descend, it's the lowest place you couldn't even measure, this chasm. People should know that. Jesus was standing there when he said, "And the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” And he said, "You who are without sin, cast the first stone.” The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. You'll never read the Psalms again the same way. You'll never read everything Jesus ever said the same way when you understand what he did with his hands before he became--

Mark: Well, how did you find all this out? All that's in your book?

Andrew: That is, that's in this one.

Kathie Lee: Yes, books are meant to be read.

Mark: How did we know anything before you came along?

Andrew: Yeah, now we know.

Mark: Now that Kathie Lee's here, we'll get it all straightened out.

Kathie Lee: I don't know everything. But that's why... I know that I don't know. So that's why I go there and I keep learning and I keep--

Andrew: Go into fear.

Mark: You said the bible. There's a bible of--

Kathie Lee: The one I'm fascinated with now is called the Tree of Life bible written by and translated by messianic rabbis. Messianic rabbi means that you are a bonafide, board-certified, Good Housekeeping-approved rabbi. You have all the information and the scholarly understanding of scripture, but you believe that Yeshua, the Jewish Hebrew name for Jesus, is the Messiah. Jesus came and fulfilled hundreds and hundreds and some say thousands of prophecies. So they translate--

Mark: Are there notes in the Bible too?

Kathie Lee: Yes, yes, yes.

Mark: There's not just translation, they put their notes so you can kind of--

Kathie Lee: Buy it, look it up. And they leave lots of room for mystery because rabbis love the mystery of--

Andrew: Yes, they do. Jewish people love the mystery.

Mark: Well, I figured they must because they wrote this. I mean, it was Jews that wrote the bible in Hebrew and--

Andrew: Go to fear, go to fear.

Kathie Lee: Luke was a Greek. Luke was a doctor, he was a gentile.

Mark: I like him.

Andrew: Go to fear because I think that's a huge topic in our culture, this idea that we’re supposed to cower before God.

Kathie Lee: The word in the Old Testament is so often misused. It's Y-I-R-E-H, yireh. My Hebrew is terrible, but I know it when I see it. And most of the time that it's used in the Old Testament in the original Hebrew, it’s used in the understanding of the wonder of God, the reverence of God, the awe of God. It's only used with fear if you're an enemy of God. We are God's children. We are not to fear him. Perfect love casts out all of fear.

Andrew: Yeah, so fear is a complete awe, it's a reverence?

Kathie Lee: Yes, a reverence and awe and a worship of, of the mystery and the magnitude.

Mark: Now I knew that already. My mother used to call me and and say, "The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom,” and I'd quote that other, "Perfect love casts out fear," and hang up.

Kathie Lee: Yes, but what would really quiet her down a little bit is you say--

Mark: Yeah, now that she's dead, she's very quiet.

Kathie Lee: It means reverence and awe and worship of Jehovah God. That's what it means, mom, unless you're an enemy of God. So see, mom?

Andrew: But we fear we're an enemy of God, talk about fear.

Kathie Lee: You should fear him if you're an enemy of God.

Andrew: Yeah, but we fear that we are even when--

Kathie Lee: But we're not, we are his children.

Mark: Who are the enemies of God?

Kathie Lee: Those who reject him and those who purposely work against his shalom coming into the world. The shalom is a word that people think means peace. In its original form, it means every attribute we give to Jehovah God. Faithfulness, righteousness, justice, joy, peace.

Mark: So when you say shalom, you're wishing that on someone.

Andrew: Like the wholeness of--

Kathie Lee: You're blessing God almighty.

Andrew: Talk about shalom. Like, you talk about original virtue. I'd be interested in what you think about this--

Mark: I don't believe in original sin. I believe in original virtue. We come from God and we were infected with sin, right?

Kathie Lee: Well, I don't know. I think we're born with capacity for both, definitely, yes. I think when we come straight from heaven, we're as close to being perfect as you can be. A baby doesn't know what a baby does.

Mark: And they smell like heaven.

Kathie Lee: Yeah, until they poop. Yeah, you know what, I don't have all the answers. I make it a point to study. And if I have a question, I go now to one of these teachers of mine and Google and just say, what does this mean? Now the women with the submission.

Mark: Gloria Gaither says Paul was a — what'd she say — a male chauvinist.

Kathie Lee: Well, if you believe what the translations of the Bible say.

Mark: Okay, how would you translate that?

Kathie Lee: I will translate it with the word that's actually used, which is hippotasso, H-I-P-P-O-T-A-S-S-O, and it's the only place in the entire Greek language where it's used in that way. The derivative of it is subject, servitude, that sort of thing when you use it about being slave-like. But the way it's used in that, I think it's Ephesians where that's used, it means to reach down and lift up in loving support. The men have the much harder job in that same verse.

Mark: Lay down your lives.

Kathie Lee: Men, love the church the way Jesus did and gave his life for her. You guys have the much harder job to do. We're just supposed to reach down and lift up in loving support.

Andrew: That's what I feel right.

Kathie Lee: Which Jesus says we’re supposed to do to anybody. The Samaritan we find on the side of the road--

Mark: Submit yourselves one to another.

Andrew: That's outside of marriage, that's our neighbor, that's loving our neighbor.

Mark: Right, I wanna talk about this.

Andrew: Can I ask one more thing--

Mark: Go ahead.

Andrew: Okay, one more thing just because I love this Israel conversation. We'll move on. Here's one of my favorite quotes from a friend of ours, Patsy Clairmont--

Kathie Lee: Love her.

Andrew: Okay, she sent this to me right before I had made my first trip to the Holy Land. She said, "It is an ancient land with the palpable voices of the past. But you must listen beyond the derision of its current turmoil. Israel has a history of conflict, and you will be aware of it as you move throughout the land. Jerusalem will rise up in you because it is important to God as are you. Your bones will age in the presence of the city and a new song will be born."

Kathie Lee: I love it.

Andrew: Does that resonate with you when you think about Israel?

Kathie Lee: Yes.

Andrew: Do you think about a new life that came in or through you because of your experience with--

Kathie Lee: You know, having grown up with a Jewish father and a gentile mom, I’ve always had a natural longing for the Holy Land. I knew I belonged there. And my father was the godliest man I've ever known in my life. So I couldn't wait to get there. I missed my high school graduation because of it, because it was a gift to me from my father for graduating. I could have cared less. From the minute I landed in Israel, the Promised Land, I knew it was a transformative place. But the trouble is when we go as tourists, we go to all the wrong places and learn all the wrong things. We just go and we're taken by people who just reconfirm what they’ve learned and it's not true. And so you're not gonna be transformed by it. You're gonna get a nice Christmas card with the smelly--

Mark: So how would someone watching get an opportunity to learn or get the right--

Kathie Lee: You go with the right people. You go and Google rabbinical trips, messianic Jewish trips to Israel. Ray Vander Laan, That the World May Know. My guy, Rabbi Jason Sobel, he has something called Fusion. Also, Rock, Road and Rabbi Tours. And they're in the minority, but you're not gonna go on the Mount of Olives and get a picture taken with Kojak that's smelly, smelly and nasty camel and then you get to prove that you went to Israel. That's fine if people want to do it. I'm not judging it. I'm just saying, if you're a real student, you wanna learn something, you can tell in the hotels who's going on what kind of a tour by the way they're dressed and what shoes they're wearing. You are a tourist.

Andrew: I'm a tourist.

Kathie Lee: You're a tourist. I am definitely a tourist right now. But when I go, you never get out of your hiking boots. And you go into the mountains and you go into the desert and you go--

Mark: So a lot of hiking?

Kathie Lee: Tons of hiking. You're gonna love it. My husband was 82-years-old the first time we went on one of these things, and he thought he was gonna hate it. And it was the most transforming trip he's ever had in his life. After that, he'd say to me about going to heaven, he said, "Kathie, I'm not afraid to die. I'm just starting to get really curious.” Why? Because he went on a rabbinical trip to the Holy Land.

Andrew: Well, he's 82 so--

Mark: Yeah.

Andrew: Now's the year.

Kathie Lee: You only look 79.

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Andrew: I think this all points to something I've always been interested in and maybe even concerned in as a western world Christian, or a Christian in the western world, and that is the context by which we read, filter, interpret scripture, which is an ancient text born out of a middle eastern, ancient middle eastern, context. How do you feel about the way Christians in the western world interpret scripture?

Rabbi Jason: Yeah, I mean I think there are some challenges to the way the western church interprets scripture. I think some of those core things, which goes back to why it’s important to know the roots I think, so for example it's a very individualistic interpretation of the scripture. So the way we interact is we read, we think just about me when biblically it's always about we. So whether it's in a sense that my goal is for me to go to heaven or to get someone I love to go to heaven, or whether it's thinking that all I need is my Bible and the Holy Spirit and that's enough and I'm done, or whether it's just praying prayers that are just me, I type of prayers, Jewish people always pray in the context of community. The prayers are we and you in the plural because we always see ourselves as part of a greater covenantal community. Even when we study the text, like we might study it alone, but we're always gonna study it in community as well and read it in community. And even when we read it alone, we're always gonna read it with the interpreters from the past and interacting and wrestling what they had to say. So it's very community-focused, it's more community focused than it is individually focused. And I think with that, one of the things on a very practical level that's been lost is now our relationships have become transactional instead of covenantal.

Andrew: Go ahead and explain the difference between that.

Rabbi Jason: Yeah, so transactional relationship is if you meet my needs, then we're good. Then we have a great connection. As soon as you don't meet my needs, I'm just gonna go find someone else who's gonna meet my needs. Covenantal says that we are committed to each other in the Lord in a spiritual relationship. And for better or for worse, we're walking together. And people treat their church relationships transactionally. Oh, I like to worship better at this church, I'm just gonna leave church. Therefore then, there’s no deep accountability, no deeper relationships, people are jumping from place to place, and that spills over into marriage. Why should I stay in my marriage? Why should I be committed during the tough times? I just go find someone else who will meet my needs. So I think this idea of covenantal friendship, of covenantal community is just so important to the greater we of what God is doing.

Andrew: This hints at Kathie Lee's passion about why even something as, what may seem like minutia that Jesus was not a carpenter when you really go into the translation, he was a stone mason. And we go, okay, who cares, you know? But if we're going to be able to intelligibly and effectively and impactfully speak with others about what we believe, at some point we become untrustworthy if everything's wrong in the minutia, I guess, huh?

Rabbi Jason: Yeah, absolutely. But I think that people need to know that there's a simple message of the great commandments to love the Lord your God. And we experience that love in the person of the Messiah, Yeshua, Jesus, and that you can have simple faith and find salvation without knowing the depth of all of these things that has nothing to do with salvation. That's important to know. I just think it's a matter of… Again, I think we need to be people that want to go deep. See, I think that part of the significance of it is that we're called to be disciples. Disciple in Greek and in Hebrew literally means a learner. Why is that so important? Because I can't say I truly love you if I don't learn about who you are, if I don't know who you are. So the more I learn about you, the more I am gonna fall in love with you, the greater the depth of our relationship and our intimacy is going to be. I think that's ultimately kind of so foundational to why I get excited to teaching these things because it reveals an aspect of God and the depth of his Word and who he is that you miss out.

Andrew: It's a proof of me wanting to know you, about wanting to know God that I would want to learn. Not just that I should learn, but that I want to learn. And I think that's interesting.

Rabbi Jason: It says the Bereans were more noble because they searched these things out. There is a searching, there is a wrestling, with the text. There is a desire to dig and go deeper. And the very wrestling of trying to go deeper is like Jacob wrestling with the Lord, and he's transformed in the process. We're so ends-orientated in the western culture instead of process-orientated--

Andrew: Tied up, right, mm-hmm.

Rabbi Jason: We're just, how do we get there in the shortest possible way? There's something about the wrestling and taking the time and questioning and meditating. Why are these things the way they are? Why does he say this this way? That just is transformative.

Andrew: And isn't that almost like an indicator of how we're gonna be transformed throughout all of eternity because we're never gonna get to the end of our learning of who God is. I don't believe.

Rabbi Jason: No.

Andrew: I believe that's an endless pursuit, because if it's not, I don’t wanna live for eternity, I wanna take a nap.

Rabbi Jason: Absolutely.

Andrew: If God just ends somewhere and I've figured it all out, what's the purpose?

Rabbi Jason: There's always gonna be more surprises, and that creates in us a sense of wonder.

Andrew: I'm always curious about that. With your audience, with the Today show, with Hoda, and all that kind of stuff, and sipping on your vino, I mean, I'm sure people are like, What does Kathie Lee know? And why is she some kind of imperative voice on this?

Kathie Lee: I shouldn't be. That's the Bible, the Word of God is the imperative voice.

Andrew: So you point it, you deflect that to--

Kathie Lee: Oh yeah, I'm so clear about the fact that I am a student, I'm just a student. But I'm an eager one. I wanna learn something on the day I die. I want it to change me on the day I die.

Andrew: Do you ever fear there's a separation from an audience? Do you fear even with your coworkers? Not everyone's walking around saying, "I'm interested in this Christian way."

Kathie Lee: I don't expect them to be. I'm there for people that are interested in it. I make tons of room for people to be who and what they are, and I can tell when somebody wants to know something and somebody is disinterested. I never force anything on anybody. Definitely never force my faith. That's the Holy Spirit’s job to create a longing in a person's heart. I'm just supposed to water the seeds and reap the harvest.

Mark: I've bet you've had a lot of private calls from people who know when they're in trouble they can call you though.

Kathie Lee: Yeah, I do. And NBC, to their credit, they have been amazing to me here. They have allowed me to be me, say what I wanna say, that I've never been asked to quiet down or to dilute my message ever. The fact that we're sitting here on our set is unbelievable. And since I came here, they are open to… We have somebody of faith pretty much every single day on the Today show. It was not that way 11 years ago. It was not that way. So God has been very faithful here. Wherever the Holy Spirit shows up, things change.

Mark: I wanna talk to you about loneliness because I heard that you get lonely?

Kathie Lee: Well, of course.

Mark: I mean, do I hear that like… I mean, I've heard that you… How do you deal with it? Because everybody knows you, everybody loves you.

Kathie Lee: I don't know. Have you read my Twitter?

Mark: I mean, I understand that being in the limelight can be a lonely place, too, because I think New York City is one of the loneliest places in the world if you're by yourself.

Kathie Lee: It can be, it can be. I have a friend of mine that does my makeup, and she was with me in Nashville all weekend long. I led her do the Lord the first day that we were in Scotland on my new movie, and she was ready. She's one of those people that is just ready to have Jesus in her life. And it's a great privilege when you can lead somebody into faith like that. But now she's starting to understand that she needs community. And Nashville is so awesome that way. There's so many people that are there for you and share your faith and encourage you. It's a city of encouragers. Even though everybody's competitive about the same business, I never sensed that. Not with the people I hang out with. They're like, "Yeah, let's write a song!"

Andrew: Yeah, exactly just like that!

Kathie Lee: It might not be as good as the one I wrote yesterday with somebody else, but let's do it!

Andrew: Yeah, do you think it's different now that… I mean, here you're at home, you have kids who are adults, and Frank's gone. Has it changed?

Kathie Lee: Well, of course it has. My husband's not gone, but not here. I know where he is. People say, "I'm sorry you lost your husband.” I say, "He's not lost. I know exactly where he is.” But it dawned on me just recently, because my mom passed away a year ago, I've been a widow for over three years. I'm now an orphan. I don't care how old you get. Your parents are your parents. I'm an orphan now. And for the last six years, I've been an empty nester. My children live in California. That's pretty far from Greenwich, Connecticut. So yeah, the loneliness is… And I'm honest about it. At times, it's crippling. It's crippling to me, and I wanna give up. And there are times, many times, when I say, “Lord, if this is all you have for me for the rest of my life, I'd rather go home with you than live another day this crippled by loneliness."

Mark: How do you fix that--

Kathie Lee: You got to power pray through it. Scripture, what did Jesus do when he was 40 days and 40 nights in the desert? He said, "You say this, but it is written.” That's why I'm also grateful that I've learned to memorize mountains of scripture so that I don't have to look up something. I can go for a long, long time just proclaiming, proclaiming scripture. That's where the power is.

Mark: Which translation have you memorized?

Kathie Lee: Most of them are either The Living Bible, which is what I learned so much of it on. But I'm learning now more and more to change it to what I'm learning to be more true, more accurate. More accurate.

Andrew: More accurate.

Kathie Lee: More accurate. The truth of Jesus's divinity. But somebody said to me the other day, "Well, Jesus was half Jewish. He was not half human and half God.” And I said no, "He was fully human and fully God according to scripture.” We need to understand these things or else we get a misconception about our Savior. I mean, Frank would have never thought about going into a football game unless he knew every play in that playbook, you know? We as Christians, most of us, have never even read the bible, even a bad translation of it. Yet we call ourselves a Christian, which means little Christ. That's what it means. And yet we don't even know our guide book. And we certainly don’t know, if we've been reading certain translations, what it actually says. If I'm gonna build my whole life, because the Bible says that to be a Christian has nothing to do with one hour in church on a Sunday morning. It says in him, we live and move and have our being. That doesn't leave room for anything other than every nanosecond of your existence is about him. Is about him. From every thought we think to every word we say, and I'm bad at it still after all these years. I've read the Bible now 11 times from beginning to end. I started reading the Bible in a year, and that's been fascinating. But I discovered that some of the translations of it were not, so I've spent 11 years learning something that is not accurate. I'm running out of time to be learning something that's not accurate. If I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna study it, it's got to be true. The truth is what sets you free. And he said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

Mark: Right.

Andrew: And that you say you're bad at it, I would say you're human at it.

Kathie Lee: I'm human, yeah, but I just tease about it. People say, "Well, you’ve been walking with the Lord.” I say, "Mostly stumbling."

Andrew: I love the idea that we're not waiting until we're dead to experience more revelation of who Jesus is because that is how a lot of us were taught. Just bide your time.

Kathie Lee: He said, "The Kingdom of heaven is now.” It's here. And we just transfer into a whole new dimension of it when we pass.

Andrew: Last question. I think about something you said about promises, about how when we originally promise something, I think in the spiritual sense, how much different we are by the time a promise is fulfilled to us. You know what I'm talking about?

Kathie Lee: In the other book.

Andrew: Yeah, we won't talk about the book.

Kathie Lee: The Rock, the Road, and the Rabbi, you mean?

Andrew: Yeah. Have you experienced something in your life where there has been that translation? From the time you felt a sense of a promise from God and the fulfillment of that promise and you became a different person?

Kathie Lee: That's happening to me right now. God has promised me certain things that will be fulfilled in my life, in this new season of my life, that have yet to happen. I am a true believer that whatever God promised to his first believers in first century Israel is for us today. I don't believe the gifts of the spirit died out when the first century Christians did. If God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, guess what, his promises are for today, yesterday, and forever too. And to not think that, I think, is to miss out on everything. If God's promises for them are not his promises for me and for you guys right now, then why are we here? Then Paul said basically we’re the most pathetic of people if it's not true, if they're not for us. And don't you love the scripture that says, "So hold unswervingly to the hope that you profess, for he who promises is faithful.” And I wrote to somebody the other day, I said, "You know what, I choose to believe what I can't yet see, for he who promised has promised me.” And at times, I give up. At times, I sob my eyes out to God and I say, "I can't keep believing it. I have no reason to believe it's true.” But he always is faithful to lift you up. The Bible says, "Cry out to him.” That's not weakness, that's understanding of the Abba Father. You can crawl up in your father's lap and pour out your heart to him. I do it every day.

Andrew: There's a translation of Psalm 34 in The Voice bible. It's a newer translation that says, "To look to his face and shine so that shame will never contort."

Kathie Lee: Yes, it says, "They looked at him and were radiant and they were not afraid."

Andrew: Yes, not afraid.

Kathie Lee: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, I love that. Speaking of not being afraid, I think about your children's book, The Gift That I Can Give, who we are, giving ourselves to others.

Kathie Lee: Yeah, and I'm excited about it. All proceeds are gonna go to Childhelp, which is an organization I've worked with for years and years and years. It's a 60-year-old organization that battles child abuse and neglect. These two incredible ladies out in Arizona started it, and they have the biggest organization in the world that battles it, and we’re going in the wrong direction in our country with the amount of children that die, five of them now every day die, from child abuse or neglect. I think it's many more than that. That's just those we know of. So anyway, buying this book will benefit those children. It comes in the board book kind of way, which is cute. It's like for really sloppy--

Andrew: That's how I read.

Kathie Lee: Wish they did this in adult form. And it comes in a more traditional way here.

Andrew: Yeah, it's beautiful.

Kathie Lee: And it's about not being afraid. It's about embracing who you are. God didn't make a mistake with you. In the world we live in today, it's very easy to compare ourselves to other people and go, but I'm not that pretty. I'm not that thin. I'm not that talented. I can't sing like that. I'm not as smart as she is. Whatever it is, and God says, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I don't make mistakes. People do. And I'm gonna be there when you make your mistakes, but I did not make one with you. And I've got a plan for you.” Jeremiah 29 says, "I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord. To prosper you and not to harm you, to give you a hope and a future.” I want a future for these children. I want them to understand from their first earliest experiences in life that God is there for you. Not to be afraid of him. It's the worship and the awe and the adoration of the Lord. That's what the Bible says, not the fear. Do not be afraid of your Heavenly Father. You are his child, and he loves you.

Andrew: We are grateful for who you are.

Kathie Lee: You should be. I'm just kidding.

Andrew: Listen.

Kathie Lee: And people love their King James Version. Well, guess what, it's the worst version of the Bible ever, ever translated.

Mark: Well, wait, hold up, hold up!

Andrew: Yeah, you got to say that on camera.

Mark: Hold the tape!

Mark: My mother comes out in me wherever I go. "Do you know what you need to do?” All my friends say, "Back down, Beverly.” Because when she passed, she didn't go to heaven, she jumped in me, and now I hear her coming out in me. That's what that reminded me of.

Kathie Lee: Excuse me? He's fine, okay?

Mark: Oh, Celeste.

Andrew: This is our executive producer, Celeste Winstead.

Kathie Lee: Hi, so nice to meet you.

Celeste: Thank you so much--

Kathie Lee: Sure, no, thanks for having me. Hi everybody. Woman camerawoman, I like it.

Andrew: Kelly, there's Kelly and Chris.

Kathie Lee: Good to meet you all.

Kathie Lee: Hoda will be a dear, dear, precious friend like that. She's unbelievable. She’s sunshine in a bottle. I hate her guts.

Mark: Cheers!

Kathie Lee: Cheers to that phony, baloney Egyptian girl. Thanks for having me.

Andrew: Yeah, thank you for letting us.

Mark: I hope you've enjoyed this conversation with Kathie Lee. That child needs a Valium. She is wild!

Andrew: She is wild, speaking from--

Mark: Yeah, really.

Andrew: So you can check out her new book, The Gift that I Can Give, through our Amazon affiliate links, which are right here in our episode descriptions.

Mark: And if you wanna binge watch Season Two of Dinner Conversation, you can do that right now on Amazon Prime.

Andrew: Thanks for watching Dinner Conversations with

Mark: Mark Lowry.

Andrew: And Andrew Greer.

Mark: Turning the light on.

Andrew: One question at a time.

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

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S02, E01: A Change of Mind featuring Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf

Watch Our Other Episodes:

S02, E03: The Humanity of Billy & Ruth Graham featuring Will Graham and Gigi Graham

S02, E04: Life After Divorce featuring Crystal Lewis

S02, E05: Place in this World featuring Michael W. Smith and Ginny Owens

5/30/19 5/30/19

Winning Takes Work featuring Scott Hamilton and Paula Trujillo

Olympic gold medalist Scott Hamilton shares his philosophy on winning — and losing — as well as his personal story about living through four cancer diagnoses. Skating instructor Paula Trujillo of the Scott Hamilton Skating Academy also teaches Andrew how to ice skate!

Olympic gold medalist Scott Hamilton shares his philosophy on winning — and losing — as well as his personal story about living through four cancer diagnoses. Skating instructor Paula Trujillo of the Scott Hamilton Skating Academy also teaches Andrew how to ice skate! Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations – subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift. A gift that will be matched 22 times.

Mark: It's incredible. Visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

Mark: This is gonna be a great episode today, y’all. Scott Hamilton is here, the skater. I used to watch him when he was younger and I was younger too. He'd spin around and get all those Olympic medals.

Andrew: Oh yeah, he was the first one who did some kind of triple axel lutz.

Mark: And he's here today telling us about how it's important that we win. He came from a totally different angle 'cause I kinda challenged him a little bit on that because I think to win you gotta lose.

Andrew: First shall be last, last shall be first.

Mark: Yeah, that's right. But he is kinda coming at it from a different direction. How would you say it?

Andrew: Yeah, he's just talking about how winning is important because it motivates us into excellence in each of our crafts. It kinda gets us off of the couch and gets us into our goals. And he's someone who you would think didn't have a whole lot of troubles in his life and journey because of his achievements, yet his story goes very deep into a lot of interesting places.

Mark: So there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. Let's join the conversation.

Scott Hamilton, Olympic Ice Skater

Mark: Well, you got a new book, Scott.

Scott: Yes.

Mark: Finish First, and when I saw this today for the first time--

Scott: Well, I gotta do a better job of promoting if you just saw it now for the first time. No, you're busy, I know you're busy. We thought that this kind of book would be great to release during an Olympic games because it kind of has this competitive identity. It's about how competition’s good, very good, and the lack of competition is bad, very bad. And so, it's just this idea of kind of, sort of giving people a chance, a little bit of a prod. So it's basically, if I had to describe it in a sentence, it's an argument for and a guide to being your best self.

Mark: Well, first thing, I thought was Jesus said, "First shall be last."

Scott: And "last shall be first."

Mark: You know, my Baptist brain. "The last shall be first," so--

Andrew: So, it almost feels, it's a jarring title.

Mark: Yeah, it feels like, wait a minute, are we really supposed to, I mean--

Scott: But it's an aspirational thing, right? I think within us is always this kind of idea of what if it were me? What if I were the one that would be able to achieve this or be recognized? All these things that we strive for that it's naturally in our design.

Andrew: Dreams.

Scott: That’s right, it's in our design. These little things like, okay, we're going to recognize somebody today for a really well done job. And we just think for a second, could that be me? You know, it's like, and we lean in, right? And a lot of people aren’t leaning in anymore, you know? You know, with a lot of the way that we prepare our kids now is with participation trophies and we're not going to count runs. Nobody wins, nobody loses. No, everybody's going to feel good when we leave. That's lazy parenting, all right?

Mark: Well, what do you have for the losers?

Scott: Honestly, I give you one word: feedback. No, because feedback. Failure is information. Purely, that's it, and we’ve given it this debilitating identity that failure is awful and we've got to avoid failure at all costs because we're going to drag it around with us. Failure is there. It's like the second it's over, I've fallen on the ice in my time, I estimate on the low end 41,600 times. But you get up 41,600 times, and you know what you're able to do? Get up, you know? You've just got this muscle that's built by getting up, and when bad things happen or if things don't go the way you want them to, it's kind of like, okay.

Mark: But you're an Olympic winner and bad things never happen to you.

Scott: Are you kidding me? No, it's like, name one thing that hasn't happened. I haven't died yet, that's about it. But even then, I have the promise of a better life in a body that won't do what mine does all the time.

Mark: Which is--

Scott: Get sick.

Mark: You've had cancer. You have cancer?

Scott: Well, I had a childhood illness that was four years where I didn't grow.

Mark: A childhood illness?

Scott: Illness.

Andrew: Misdiagnosis is in the middle of that, too?

Scott: It was undiagnosed, basically. There was a couple missed, but none that they ever acted on. It was kind of like, we don't know, we don't know, we don't know and then I started skating and all the symptoms went away, which is remarkable. And then, in 1997, I had testicular cancer— Did all the chemo, stage three. All the chemo, the tumor in my abdomen, I'm not a big person, it was twice the size of a grapefruit. How do I miss that?

Mark: I don't know.

Scott: It's 4% body fat. How do I miss that?

Andrew: Yeah, you would think that would look like pregnancy.

Mark: And you didn't feel it?

Scott: I did. It hurt a lot, but I was just working through it because I'm a guy, right? We're bulletproof. We don’t care about stuff like that. We don't need doctors. We're just going to keep going. And then, it got to a point where I couldn't stand up straight anymore. And so, I went in and got diagnosed with some form of cancer. They didn't know what it was, but there was a mass, and I thought that was pretty funny because nobody had ever used the word mass in description of me before, you know?

Andrew: In your mind, being cautious or not going in to see what that was about, was there a failure kind of mentality like, if I am sick--

Scott: No, it was I thought I worked myself into an ulcer. Because we're working hard to build this show--

Mark: When you heard the “C" word, what did you think?

Scott: Well, it was about 20 years, almost to the month, that I lost my mom to cancer, so the fear was extraordinary because I saw how she diminished and how she suffered and everything else, and I thought, oh, boy, that's going to be me and I'll never, I'm going to lose the life that I've always known, and it's going to be hard, and if I even survive, it'll never be the same. All those negative things are things we can tell ourselves, but the reality of it was by the time I got to the official diagnosis, I'd built all this material of going through the biopsy, which was hysterical, and then getting through all the parade of doctors with their officiousness, giving me the diagnosis, which was hysterical, and then, my nurse kind of understood me right away, and wouldn't let anybody in my room unless they made me laugh, you know? And so, I wanted to control the environment, I wanted it to be, in the end, not a memory of suffering but a memory of laughter. And a memory of, you know. And so she treated me like an 8-year-old. She decorated my chemo bags every time because I'd two 4-hour infusions five days in a row, and then 16 days off, and then two 4-hour infusions. You know, four hours, four hours. It was like a full-time job for five days and then 16 days off. So, I did that for four rounds, and when I was done, I looked like a completely different person, completely different physicality. And then, I had to wait for a 38-staple surgery, which was, that's a lot for a little guy like me. So, then, when I got through that, you know, so much of my mom came back to me when I was going through all that because she would say these really amazing things like, "Oh, this chemotherapy! I finally found a way to lose all this weight. Oh, I love this chemo! I wanted to quit smoking all these years, and now, I have no desire at all.” And then, "Oh, this chemo. I hate my hair. These wigs are so much easier.” This is my mom, right?

Andrew: So this was her personality, too?

Scott: But I didn't remember any of that because my thing was mourning her in a really powerful, very dedicated way of getting past me being a loser, basically, which I was a very dedicated loser. I'd come in last or close to the bottom in every national competition I was in, and when you're a girl and you medal in skating, you're really pretty good. If you're a guy and you don't medal in skating, it's really not. It's rough.

Andrew: It means you can't skate?

Scott: So, you've got to figure it out, right? You've got to figure out, what do I need to do? And what I realized was that there was a lot of things about skating that I didn't like. There was a lot of things about it that I loved, but I didn't like the tediousness of tracing those figure eights, and I didn't like a lot of the really, I have to go through my program every day? I get tired. I don't want to do that.

Andrew: And bored?

Scott: I was choosing what parts of my job I liked, and I was eliminating the rest. So, I wasn't very good and I would go to competition and I would lose. The last competition my mother ever saw me skate in, I came in ninth, Nationals.

Mark: No.

Scott: And I was awful. I was really not there. It was bad. I mean, I look back on those days now, and it was like, thank goodness that I had a coach that kind of reached down and grabbed me by the, and he goes, "All right, whatever you do away from the ice, that's your responsibility. When you're on the ice, we're going to use this time and we're going to be very structured. Everything's going to be great.” And he taught me how to train with a real intensity, and from then on, I made it to the '88 Olympics, and I went four years undefeated. That's the second part of the title, is winning changes everything. So, when you get into a pattern of doing things that are productive, when you get into a pattern of doing things that allow you to move forward instead of getting stuck or knowing that I know I could be doing better, but I don't really feel like doing--

Mark: Well, now you're older.

Scott: Yeah, much older.

Mark: You're 59, correct?

Scott: Mm-hmm.

Mark: I'm 59.

Scott: Oh, that's 60.

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Mark: And don't forget, not only will your gift be matched 22 times, but for every dollar you donate, we will enter you into a drawing for our Season Two Grand Prize Giveaway and--

Andrew: What is the giveaway?

Mark: It's dinner with me and Andrew in Houston, Texas, at my favorite restaurant.

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Mark: And your travel and accommodations are included. We also have a VIP package for everyone who gives $1,000 or more.

Mark: Oh, yes! I'm going to write your favorite line, whatever it is, from "Mary, Did You Know" and you'll get that one, like, "When she kissed her little baby, she kissed the face of God,” that's probably my favorite, and then I'll autograph that and send that to you and you can keep that, and then, when I'm dead, it'll be worth $2 or $3.

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Andrew Learns to Skate with Paula Trujillo

Andrew: I want you to take note of something real quick. You see the smiles on the children's faces? That is, (clears throat) that is before they skate. We shall see how those smiles turn into frowns.

Paula: So we're not really...

Andrew: Teach me to skate.

Paula: It's all about how to stay a little bit low, like a low rider, like a low rider car. You wanna stay low to the ground, a smooth car like a Cadillac.

Andrew: I am a gold medalist, Paula.

Paula: Very good! I like your wide base, just bring them a little bit closer so they're right underneath your hips. You're doing it.

Andrew: I'm done.

Paula: If we just... (laughs)

Cameraman: You haven't fallen yet.

Andrew: Can we just not say that out loud?

Paula: He needs to learn to spin now.

Andrew: I don't know why that convinced you I need to learn something else. If you think you can't skate--

Paula: You can do this. Anybody can, it's just science. You got this.

Mark: And you recently, I read an article, that Andrew forwarded to me, that you are no longer with NBC.

Scott: My role has changed.

Mark: Can we get your attitude on that?

Andrew: Well, first explain the--

Scott: Okay, so I've been the lead analyst for figure skating for seven Olympics, three with CBS and four with NBC.

Andrew: Which is phenomenal in and of itself. That's a long run.

Scott: It's huge. It went from Dick Button to me. The guy that invented it to me, and it's like Dick Button was Harvard educated. I think he went to Harvard Law and Harvard Business School at the same time. Brilliant, right? I negotiated my high school diploma. There's no way in the world that I should be in a position of actually speaking to masses of people. So I always just felt like the luckiest guy in the room and that I was fooling a lot of people and that it was, I really love the sport, I love the skaters, I love the process of preparation. I learned how to do that.

Andrew: It was genuine.

Scott: It was. I loved it, and these skater's stories deserved to be told in a way that's supportive and kind and not biting or cutting. They worked hard to get here, really hard, and their families sacrificed everything. So honor that. So I did it for a long time, and then we were in Sochi and Johnny Weir and Tara Lipinski were taking-- It was really funny. They were sucking up all the air in the room because they were fresh and it was really wild looking and they had this really great rapport, and I looked at that and it's like okay, that's a lot of momentum. Okay, whatever's next is whatever's next. And it took several months. It was not until the fall that I reached out to see if they wanted me to schedule my time with them.

Andrew: For this winter games, this past?

Scott: No, no, no, that was just for the nationals, the next year, and for Skate America actually 'cause I was getting speaking offers and I thought it would be-- I want to respect NBC if they need me. I don't want to leave ‘em. And so I got a call from the main guy at NBC who just said, we're gonna make a change. And I said I knew that. I knew it from the time I set foot in Sochi all the way through the end. I knew that more than likely they were gonna go new, young, hip, trendy, all that really great stuff, and my goodness, they have a phenomenal rapport together.

Mark: Well, every person goes through that, right, as you get older? Now 100 years ago, people our age were already dead. So now we're living longer, but we're seeing our younger-- Obviously, that's the way the circle of life works.

Scott: And it's fine.

Mark: But how can you help people that might be watching that it’s-- How do you accept it so easily?

Andrew: Yeah, when it's hard to take that information.

Scott: Well, it's almost like you have to process out the negativity of it. When I was first told, it was like, my first instinct was, wow, that's a big chunk of my life that’s-- And it's like, well, let’s not get melodramatic. I go, okay, I love doing it, and it was a really wonderful thing and I really enjoyed the process. I loved being the voice on these skaters, who I'm huge fans of. I loved being the voice when they're on the big experience, and I mourned it. I really did. I mourned it for about 10 minutes. And then I was fine. And I got this text--

Mark: Now what did that 10 minutes look like though?

Scott: It felt like I'd failed.

Andrew: Punch in the gut?

Scott: A little bit. It felt like I let people down or I should've done better. All those things that are a trap and mean nothing and are worthless. We just put ourselves through this thing, and I realized, no, no, no, no, no, change was inevitable, and now whatever happens next, because in that same phone call, they said, "We're keeping you on in some capacity."

Andrew: Right, you did Olympics on Ice with the network?

Scott: We did Olympic Ice, and honestly, when I got there, I was freaking out because it's like, when you're doing the Olympics and it starts with the team event, it's like an upside down iceberg. When the iceberg's right, you see this much but you don't know all this is. Well, it's upside down now, so I have to know all of this stuff. I have to have all these facts about all these skaters and all their performances and all their records and everything else and I don't live on planet world skating day to day. So I have to study and I have to make some-- And two nights I lost sleep, and it wasn't a time change. It was two nights I was scared to death 'cause it's like I have to do an hour-long talk show and talk about these people. It's like I'm gonna fail. And I woke up one morning and my book was sitting up against the counter there and I looked and I go, oh yeah, that's right, get to work. And so I put my head down and I just got to work, and it was one of the best experiences I've ever had of any Olympics.

Andrew: Well, striving for excellence, like that's what I see in this book, that's what I hear in your conversation. Isn't there something spiritual, isn't there a spiritual element to no matter what we devote our days to, no matter what work that is, no matter what family looks like, et cetera, striving for excellence, that's what you're talking about. There'll be failure, and you call it pain points, I like that, along the way. But striving for excellence, is that a spiritual thing?

Scott: I think it is. I mean, think about this. We are children of God. He has blessed us with unique abilities. We are the only one of us that's ever been on this planet in the history of the world. We are given certain talents, certain things about us that make us unique. It's up to us to reveal them and exploit them. And if we don’t, I just don't think we’re living a full life. I don't think we're living the life that God wants us to live. And how do we know how we're doing? Competition is good. Competition is— It's like I look at, okay, why is the United States the United States and Haiti Haiti? Why?

Mark: God has blessed America.

Scott: Well, okay, that's big huge part of it. That's about the biggest part of it, but okay, it's a whole spiritual conversation, but let's look at how there is no competition in Haiti.

Mark: Is there not?

Scott: As far as I know, and I've been down there a lot, every single business is a monopoly. Well, there's three banks, yes. They're all owned by the same family. It's like, come on.

Andrew: So there's no competition?

Scott: There's no competition, so there's no real need. They control--

Andrew: So competition is not just for bettering ourselves even. It also betters the climate around us or the culture around us.

Scott: It allows the bar to get raised each time.

Mark: But I hate it for me personally, and let me tell you why. I have never-- I cannot imagine going on American Idol, even as a kid. The thought of--

Andrew: Because?

Mark: Because first of all, never thought I was good enough to do that.

Scott: That's not your calling. That's not your purpose. Your purpose is right here, right now. You do this, and you do it well.

Mark: But I've never had to compete that I remember.

Scott: Well, you're competing for viewership. You're competing for--

Mark: I guess so.

Scott: You put yourself out there to drum up interest.

Andrew: You do put yourself out there. I mean that's part of it, right?

Scott: A lot of people would be paralyzed by that. Just give me a ledger, and let me sit in a room and just count numbers.

Andrew: While they're dreaming of something else.

Scott: No, like they're dreaming of being the best at that.

Mark: But we need people to do that too. If I didn't have somebody pushing a pencil, I would be bankrupt.

Scott: We're all given different purpose, different identities, different skillsets. I met a little girl in Korea, and the venue manager in PyeongChang and I got to be really good friends. Great guy, loves the Lord, and we were just, we just struck up this really unique friendship, and he goes, "I need you to talk to my staff.” And I go, “Why?" And he goes, "Hope has been driven out of our culture.” And I'm like, "Oh, that's really rough.” And so I did kind of a finish first talk to the staff, and they're from all over the world, but most of them are Korean and this little girl came up to me, and this is really significant. She came up to me and she goes, and she was almost like frustrated. She said, "I don't understand something. "Can you answer a question for me?” And I go, "Of course.” And she goes, "Purpose, what is purpose? I'm not good at anything.” She said it just like that. And I'm like, who's been talking to you? I'm not good at anything. And it's like she was angry that she wasn't good at anything or bitter that she wasn't good at anything. And I go, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's tap the brakes on this a little bit. What do you love to do? What brings you more happiness than anything else?” And she said, "I like to read.” And I go, "What were the last two books you read?” And she said, "Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights.” And I said, "You love the classics.” And she said, "I do.” And a big smile went on her face and I go, "Maybe you're an author.” And her eyes went like that, just like that little thing of like, holy cow, I've been given permission. How many people have not been given permission to live out their purpose, to live out what they're designed to do, what they would love to do, what would bring them incredible joy and significance in their lives? They just get smothered under all this, you don't ever want to fail. Well, guess what. Let's just deal with that right now. Failure's okay. Failure's fine. Failure's in the past. Failure is something--

Andrew: And failure's information.

Mark: And failure can be good. You say it's information.

Scott: The greatest single ingredient, if we had a recipe for success, the biggest single ingredient would be failure. It would have to be. But you think about that, it's like yeah, probably that's right. But I don't know if I want to live through that. If a baseball player only fails two out of three times, they're in the Hall of Fame.

Andrew: Right, right, right, right.

Scott: So you think about, let's look at failure about what it is, but I look at it-- I use examples in the book, like Michael Bloomberg fired without severance. There's all these people that came from, and they built these giant, and I'm not saying that everybody has to build this gigantic, but it's about what will bring you, in your--

Mark: For somebody who's watching, a 45-year-old single lady who never got married. I know there's one out there watching probably right now thinking I've had the dream. So you would ask them, "What do you love?” Is that what you would ask?

Scott: What are you drawn to? What brings you joy? What brings you happiness? What brings you peace? And then just sort of look at that, 'cause I look at my recipe out of the gate was I was adopted at six weeks of age. I was sick as a child. My parents were school teachers, didn't have the means to make me an elite athlete but kept me in it 'cause it was keeping me well. I didn't have the coaching 'cause I grew up in a small town. I lost.

Mark: So you got the backstory?

Scott: Well, the thing is is if I can do it, there's no reason why anyone else can’t. But it's like what have I learned, and let me guide you through this. When you're telling somebody to do something, you want 'em to get to it. It's not world peace. It's not Bonhoeffer. It's like, here's the deal. Here's what you need to do. Go do it.

Mark: I agree. I always said I'd make a horrible counselor 'cause I'd say, "You know what, the sun is coming up tomorrow whether you're depressed or not.” I've had to learn to be merciful to people who are going through stuff like that.

Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message

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Andrew: This is the example that has been set for us by Jesus that we would help our neighbors in their time of need. And this is what Food for the Hungry is doing to help relieve the refugee crisis in Bangladesh. So you can give today, partner with Dinner Conversations as we partner with Food for the Hungry by giving generously at fh.org/dinner.

Mark: To learn more about Dinner Conversations, visit dinner-conversations.com.

Andrew: And while you're there, check out our Season One DVD with all of our past episodes and some bonus stuff, as well as check out these cool show mugs.

Mark: Yeah. So when we have our next conversation, you can have coffee with us. Let's get back to the conversation.

Paula Trujillo, Manager, Scott Hamilton Skating Academy

Andrew: All right, so first thing we're gonna talking about, I learned to skate, Paula.

Paula: You did.

Andrew: So I got a medal.

Paula: You were fantastic.

Andrew: Tell me about my gold medal.

Paula: I'll tell you what, our first, when I moved here, we had, it was in my office downstairs and it was important to be here on the first day to walk through this walk with Scott 'cause I needed to feel his vision from day one. So I took a redeye and I ended up here, and that morning, I was looking at our rosters and there was four names on it and I was like, oh my gosh, I moved across the country for four skaters. And I was in my office by myself, and all of a sudden, Scott, he just magically appeared and he stood in the doorway and he goes, "Don't worry. They'll come.” Anyways, they did, and by the end of that first session, we had probably 70 kids. And since they were our first graduating class, we bought those gold medals for our first graduating class.

Andrew: So that was the beginning of the, one, I love the story of Scott just appearing. He is kind of like a little leprechaun, isn't he?

Paula: Yes, yes, he is, coolest leprechaun ever.

Andrew: That's right. But so you moved here from Vegas, and that was four years ago, moved here to Nashville, Tennessee, which we are sitting inside the Ford Skating Ice Center, which houses the Scott Hamilton Skating Academy, and part of that is Learn to Skate. So what you're referencing is the beginning of Learn to Skate. And tell me, so take me into, I know that you were influenced by Scott and that's part of what got you here to Nashville and to the Skating Academy, but Learn to Skate, how did that come about? And what is Learn to Skate? I mean, I know I just participated and that you taught me some of the basics and stuff, but you have kids to adults, you run the gamut as far as who is learning to skate. So what is Learn to Skate?

Paula: Well, Learn to Skate is really anything. It's about the fundamentals of skating. It's balance, it's learning to be on the blade and it's taught in a really creative and fun way for everybody. What we love about it here is it's affordable for everybody. It's a great workout. You don't have to put sparkles on and sequins and go out there. You can come out there, and tomorrow you're gonna be, you're gonna be like, that was an awesome workout.

Andrew: I'm gonna feel it.

Paula: Yeah, that's what our goal is to make it a family environment of learning how to skate, learning how to balance on your blade, and finding that avenue that every kid wants to go, whether it's figure skating, whether it's hockey, it's awesome.

Andrew: Well, this is an easy town to fall in love with hockey. But take me through your history. So where did skating begin for you?

Paula: In White Bear Lake, Minnesota. My entire family skated. My dad was a hockey player, my brother was a hockey player, my sister Sue was a figure skater, and my sister Mary Jo was a speed skater. And so when I was real teeny tiny, I would just get, I would be in the rink all the time anyways. One time when I was just, I think I was like four or five, there was a pair of rental skates laying around, and I just laid on the ground and I put 'em on. My parents were watching some other kid, and I just, all of a sudden they lost me and I was in the middle of a public session out there. I just. I didn't care. And right before my dad passed away last year, he reminded me that I was super lucky to have found something in my life that I did as a child that was my passion. And then I toured in Ice Capades, that's where I met Scott and I got do it for a living, and now I'm still doing it for a living. So I feel pretty lucky.

Andrew: You were telling me about one of your programs, which is for kids, and maybe some of them are older kids or young adults who have intellectual disabilities. And their parents are able to come in here and just hang with each other while their kids are supervised in a safe place. But if I think about that, that, one, it's providing these kids that sometimes are left out or are on the fringes of at least social constructs, opportunity to be in those spaces with one another, and it also, you were talking about how relieving it is for the parents just to come. So talk to me a little bit about what inspired that specific-- I think that is so cool. Tell me, what does that look like when you have a group of kids with what you said, intellectual disabilities, out here. I mean, all shapes and sizes and learning curves.

Paula: But what does it mean for them? For me, it's everything from we started at Coach Cody, he wanted to teach Learn to Skate so bad, and he is a social worker by trade. And he learned to play hockey, well, he learned to skate six years ago. And when he wanted to teach Learn to Skate, he was still pretty new at skating, and he said, "If you give me a shot at this, I'll never leave you.” And I'm like, “Okay." And you don't need to be an Olympic gold medalist to teach young people the beautiful fundamentals of skating. You need to have a passion, you need to have a love, and you need to have a joy for it. And you need to understand some things. He had all those things. He had that, he had everything that you needed to do this, and I think it was probably the best thing for him. And now he's not doing his social work anymore. Well, he's actually, I would say he's doing it.

Andrew: He is but in the arena.

Paula: He's doing it every day with every person he works with. Parents love him. He's tough on intellectually challenging kids. He really holds them accountable, and their parents love that. He knows how to get the best out of them.

Andrew: And we talked a lot with Scott about kind of this idea that he's really been perpetuating and I think has perpetuated through the academy and through the students of finishing first. That it's not a bad thing to finish, that culturally today, we have this kind of participant mentality, everyone is a winner, and I was hearing you talk about when I was out on the ice too, everyone isn't a winner, and that's okay. That one, failure is information, there's things to learn from losing, but talk to me some about that idea. How do you incorporate that with students? 'Cause I don't see you out there, I don't see anything but encouragement out there, but yet it's encouragement for excellence and it's saying it's okay to win. Is that true?

Paula: True. Yes, we encourage our classes. We want our kids to stay in group classes. We want them to create an environment of cohesiveness, of support for one another, friendship, camaraderie. Their parents hang out up here and discuss everything and hang out, and they are committed, the parents I think are committed, to making sure their kids always feel grounded in when they go to compete against each other that they need to remember the fundamentals of why they started it for joy and that they should want to win at the end of the day, but if they don't win, it's okay. Their friend won today, and that's an okay thing. I think there's a lot of lessons in life in not winning. You prepare a student and you work them really hard to take what's considered like a moose in the field. They start at the bottom, and they go all the way up to the senior level. And when you get to the senior level, you're a gold medalist in the moves in the field. And along that path, these are challenges, and I think if every kid was to pass every test, it would be a disservice. I think there's something that they learn in not passing that test. They learn compassion. If they're gonna be a coach someday, they know what it feels like to not pass every test. They know what that feels like. It doesn't feel good, but you can rise up and you can conquer from it and you can get back to work. You can get gritty and accomplish the things you want to accomplish in skating through hard work and through failure. I always tell students, "You need to raise your expectations to mine because I'm not gonna lower mine to yours."

Andrew: I love that. It's true. But we need to be around people like that, too. That's part of the excellence thing, and that's kind of part of the whole finish first thing and not being afraid to win is that when we're around people who are currently at the top of their game, our game gets stronger.

Paula: Absolutely.

Andrew: And then when we’re at the top of the game, there are people around us who are, and we get to pass the baton in that arena and go on to another arena or go on to another learning experience within what we love. So I think, I really love what you talked about with the kids and about how you teach ‘em the friendship and the camaraderie so that as they begin to excel and as they begin to win, and as some begin to lose, there's a total support system.

Paula: They pick each other up.

Andrew: I think that's cool. Do you remember a place-- You've had a storied career. I love hearing about your pathway and through Ice Capades and all these things that like you say, like your dad was saying, to be grateful that you really have found a profession and thing you loved. But there had to be speed bumps along the way. There had to be some things. Can you think of one that was like, yeah, that felt like a failure or that felt like losing, but it was actually a propeller forward?

Paula: My parents didn't have a lot of money. So skating, my opportunities were very small. The funding for that, I had to really be resourceful, and I think because of that, some of the other coaches in the rink, I think this is where I just learned that share your knowledge and never, ever waste it. It should always be shared. I remember standing behind other coaches and they would let me listen in on their lessons as they were teaching somebody else because they knew I could only afford one or two lessons a week while other kids would go from coach to coach and two or three lessons a day and could move up the skill, acquiring those skills was quicker when you are given more instruction. But I was just like, I would be listening, and I think that was the biggest game changer for me is that even though you don’t, you can get anywhere you want. It's not necessarily who you are, it's what you know. And using that knowledge to help everything kind of propelled me into everything. Then I joined Ice Capades. I got good enough to join Ice Capades, that's what I wanted to do. That's where I met Scott. He was in Ice Capades for one year and it was family and it was awesome. But in Ice Capades, that's where I just, I learned that hard work, kids that were seniority people, it was my first year on the show, and I remember staying and watching rehearsals where it was seniority people, and only the people that had been on the show for 10 years got to be in that number. And I watched it every day, every rehearsal, and then one day when we were in some city, there was a flu epidemic, and there was seven people out of the show and they needed somebody in that number and I'm like, "I can do it. I could do it.” So I think it's that constant learning thing that has propelled me forward in this sport, and I have a thirst for knowledge. I'm still learning every day. I don't even think I’m very good at this job yet, and I like that feeling. I like constantly trying to challenge myself and push myself past my own current state.

Andrew: But there's still more.

Paula: There's more.

Andrew: Well, and I even think of you as a little girl kind of eavesdropping in and those coaches even without speaking allowing you to do that. And what I think about is now look at that kind of almost full circle. You've got a long way to go, but here at the Skating Academy, not only you coaching, but you're gonna be mindful and aware and cognizant of those kids around you and their situations, not only when they're here on the ice but when they're at home. And so I think it's pretty cool how that comes full circle. I think you're pretty cool.

Paula: I think you're cool. You're the best.

Andrew: I want to take it back even to cancer 'cause you're like this bundle of positivity. It's amazing how much positive energy's coming out of you. But yet I think about, okay, your childhood backstory, but we didn't kind of finish the progression of testicular cancer 21 years ago, then a brain tumor and then another brain tumor and currently you're living with cancer.

Scott: Can you see it?

Mark: Where is it?

Scott: It's right there.

Mark: Is it, really? I don't see it.

Scott: I don't see it either.

Andrew: I would be screaming unfair.

Mark: Where are you right now?

Scott: It's shrinking.

Mark: Oh, it is?

Scott: No one can explain it.

Mark: It's shrinking and no one can explain it?

Andrew: So you asked the doctor why it was shrinking?

Scott: And yeah, the first one said God. I was on the Dr. Oz Show--

Mark: Okay, first of all where is it?

Scott: The pituitary.

Mark: Right in the center of your brain?

Scott: Yeah, right here.

Mark: And how big is it? What's the story? What kind is it?

Scott: It was presenting itself. The first time it got kind of gangly, and it was wrapped around stuff. And so they did radiation, and it was kind of whole brain radiation. I used to be a lot smarter than I am now, and I could put a sentence together. But when you put your brain through radiation, it tends to--

Andrew: This was the first--

Scott: That was the first brain tumor, yeah. 'Cause they caught it late. It just sort of happened. And so they caught it, and then here's the crazy part. When they did the biopsy, they dig a hole in your head. There's a little divot right there. They dig a hole in your head, and they go down in, they take a piece, they come back out, and it's like, they told me we found a safe corridor we feel. I'm not really using much of it, so have at it. Like no, no, no, lot of bad things can happen. They have to tell you, the doctors, they have to tell you all the bad things that can happen.

Andrew: Liabilities.

Scott: Yeah, right. So it's like, oh, I could lose motor function, memory, I won't be able to speak, okay. All right, let's go ahead and do it. You have no choice, right? And so they--

Andrew: I guess.

Scott: I woke up, I knew who I was, where I was, why I was there, and I went, "Test. Okay, I can speak.” All right, so that went well, the surgery went well.

Mark: Wow.

Scott: But it was, they found out that I was born with this brain tumor. And it usually shows itself due to a lack of growth and development as a child. So that was my childhood illness. But I skated all those years, it didn't do anything.

Mark: So what is it doing now?

Scott: Now it seems to be through a lot of prayer and a lot of healthy decisions and a lot of good things, it's receding.

Andrew: 'Cause you're not doing-- Radiation's no longer an option, right, 'cause of the amount of radiation?

Scott: Yeah, I can't do it anymore.

Andrew: It would be dangerous.

Scott: I'd probably go blind, and a lot of bad things would happen. And then I could do surgery again 'cause they'd have to undo the last surgery, which didn't really go as well as they hoped. So it's like, I'll do it, I don't want to do it. I'll do it. If the Lord wants me to do it, I'll do it, but right now he gets all the glory on this one 'cause there's no one-- My endocrinologist had the same brain tumor as me as a child and became an endocrinologist because she was being underserved. So she speaks my language, I speak hers. So one visit with her, and I changed every single one of my medications and hormone replacement, and I felt like a normal human being four days later, where before it was like this, and it was like, ugh, here we go again.

Mark: So do you tell people, do you tell people what you're going-- Your food, you say you changed your diet?

Scott: I did.

Mark: Is that in the book?

Scott: No, no, no, everybody’s journey is theirs. I really wrote it in a way that I'm kind of guiding you through, I'm giving you examples of what works, what doesn’t. And you get into again the failure piece. It's information.

Andrew: Okay, but there's this quote of yours, and I love quotes, and I love quoting people while they're in front of me. "So much of my debilitation has been God-given. It's 100% an invitation.” So do you really feel that cancer has been God's gift to you?

Scott: Oh, best thing that ever happened to me.

Mark: Explain.

Scott: You know how we can do things that separate us from God and separate us from who we really need to be and who we are?

Andrew: Sure.

Scott: Success does that more than failure ever could. Success kind of awakens all your demons, and you look at a lot of people that have been either won the lottery or became a chronic-- Fame, right, and it makes them different then they really should be. So I was at like killing it, Stars on Ice was selling out everywhere. It was phenomenal. It was awesome, and I really wasn’t. I knew I wasn't the person that I needed to be. And it just was haunting me. It was like I was frustrated, and I loved the work, but I didn't like me very much.

Andrew: Internally?

Scott: Internally it was a struggle. It was like I don't like me very much. I just feel like there’s something broken or missing, and then I was diagnosed with cancer, and it sort of awakened this desire in me to kind of sort it out. And so I just checked out. I did my tours and my work, and then I would kind of go away, try to figure it out. And I ended up in the one place where I could be isolated, alone and left to my own devices, and that's Los Angeles, California. And it was great because the summers, like anywhere, post tour is summer. I could go anywhere. I found this little community that was peaceful and very pleasant, and three years, I was, two years I was there actually before I met my wife, and I had kind of taken a three-year timeout of just sort of trying to figure it out. It wasn't healthy, I knew that, mentally. And so cancer really just corrected-- It was a course correction for me. And without cancer, I wouldn't have met, I would not have met Tracy. Without cancer, I wouldn’t have the two sons that I have. Without cancer, I wouldn’t have adopted the two children we did from Haiti, and without any of that, I wouldn't have been-- When Tracy, we were at a point in our dating when she goes, "I have to ask you a very serious question.” And it's like, "Hit me.” And she said, "Where are you in your relationship with Jesus Christ?”

Mark: Whoa.

Scott: And I said what any really intelligent guy would say, "Where do you want me to be?” So she goes, "Well, let's talk about it.” And so we talked about it. And I had very adolescent views that were-- I had belief. I knew that there was something there. I knew that there was someone--

Mark: Were you raised in church?

Scott: Not really. It was sort of--

Mark: So you'd heard of Jesus?

Scott: Oh, of course, yeah. And I tried to read the bible 'cause I skated with Janet Lynn, who was an amazing evangelist, and I tried to read it and I go, try being mildly dyslexic and read Isaiah.

Mark: Oh my.

Scott: Okay, well this isn't working for me. And so she brought me to her minister, who lives right here in Nashville.

Andrew: Tracy did?

Scott: Tracy did. And he just said, "Where are you?” And I go, "Okay, I don't understand this. I don't like this. I don't get this. This really kind of throws me way off.” And I laid it all out there, and he said, "I couldn't agree with you more.” I'm like, you're my friend. And he just handed me a bible and he goes, "Do you like history?” And I go, "I love history. It was my favorite subject in school." And he goes, "This is a book of history. But don't look at these stories as stories of the people. Look at these stories of God did this. God was in every single one of these stories. It'll help you understand God. And then when you get to the New Testament, we'll talk."

Mark: So you started in Genesis?

Scott: I started just figuring out. I'd go to church, and I would study, I'd listen, and I got stuck a little bit in Numbers. Leviticus really gave me a little bit, but really the more I dive in, the more I listen, the more I pay attention--

Mark: 'Cause when did Jesus show up for you? When did that happen?

Scott: He showed up like vividly when I was diagnosed with my brain tumor because I was studying, I was listening, I was believing. I was doing all the things I needed to do in order to kind of really develop a life of faith. But it was when I had to tell my wife that I had a brain tumor when we had a 14-month-old son, and now I'm gonna be a burden to my wife and child. It's like, no, this isn't good. And I told her. We were in Cleveland at my annual fundraiser for cancer research, and she goes, "What's going on?” And I go, "I have a brain tumor.” I just said it 'cause there was no other way to do it, and she just took both my hands about her head and started to pray. It was easily I'd say the most powerful moment of my life because it was there that I realized you got to live it and you've got to have faith and you've got to understand that there's a better way. That if he's in it, you're probably gonna be okay, no matter what. If he's in it, you're gonna be okay. So it was there that it was, and it was right after that I had the radiation, and it was right after that I got baptized. Tracy was gonna meet-- She was taking my son Aiden, and they were gonna go meet some friends, and I was gonna go back and watch football. And she said, "How do you feel?"

Mark: Did you say, "About what?"

Scott: No, no, no. And she goes, "How do you feel?” And I just gave her a one word answer: "Lighter."

Andrew: Later?

Scott: Lighter. Lighter. I just felt like I wasn’t carrying around the burden of all the junk that I'd been forced to live with without baptism. Once you give it to Jesus, once you give it to the cross, my goodness, and you mean it, whew, you don't have to carry that stuff around anymore. In fact, it's almost sacrilegious to carry it around because you've given it to him. I meet people all the time that are suffering in their lives and suffering in their pasts and suffering, and I'm sure I could line up about 100 people out this door that say, "Here's another bad thing that he did.” And it's like, yeah, but I'm not him anymore. I'm not that guy. I want to be light. I want to be salt. I want to be who he always thought I could be. And that's kind of the scriptural part of our message today is we are loved unconditionally and forever. Somebody told me the definition of the gospel was you are loved, now deal with it.

Mark: I love that.

Scott: But we always feel so lost and so smothered by the world and it's like, no, no, no, we are loved unconditionally. Get to work. Now you do your part.

Mark: You'd have never met your wife, you'd have never had your children, and you'd probably never have met Jesus 'cause your wife really led you to the Lord kind of, right?

Scott: I know I would've been drawn to Jesus at some point--

Mark: He'd find you some way.

Scott: But it was in his timing, not mine, and it was beautiful, powerful, and amazing, and I'm really grateful for it, and I really-- I try not to be kind of this scream at the top of my lungs at the secular world of skating, but I pray that what I'm doing in this world is appealing to people and that they might be a little more curious about how to find that joy and no matter what, how to find the joy. But I mean it is, it's like that example like you said of the newspaper article, The New York Times article, about getting demoted, don't feel sorry for me. Without Jesus, how would I have taken that news? When I get the first brain tumor and the second brain tumor and the third brain tumor, how would I have been without him? And my goodness, it has changed the trajectory of everything in the process because the promise of Jesus is this life will be a struggle, but the next one will be a lot better.

Andrew: I'll be doing triple axels.

Scott: Oh, I don't know, man. If I never skate again, that's okay too. But give me a brand new body, and I'll work that one out, we'll see. Never say never.

Mark: I'd love a nose that comes to a point. I've always wanted that.

Andrew: We hope you're around for a lot longer.

Scott: Oh, we'll see, and if not--

Mark: I'll see you at the house.

Scott: Yes.

Mark: But you don't want to get there till your mansion's ready.

Mark: Well, if you want to finish first. Now my book, Finished Last, is coming out next year.

Scott: Not after you read that.

Mark: Get it, y’all, if you want to finish first.

Scott: I always joke that there’s constants in the universe right. Lyle Lovett said that his constant in the universe is that all women, given the opportunity, would rather eat outdoors. And mine is the music you listened to in high school will always be enjoyable for the rest of your life. And that all women hate their hair and want the rear end of a 5-year-old boy. It's just the way it goes.

Andrew: I got to unpack that one.

Mark: Oh, Father in Heaven. How did that do? How'd that get high and lifted up?

Andrew: You need to go like this with it.

Andrew: Paula Trujillo with Learn to Skate at the Scott Hamilton Skating Academy. If you think you can't do it, you can.

Mark: Well, I know you enjoyed that episode with Scott Hamilton.

Andrew: Yeah, what a great guy. His new book, Finish First, you can read it and you can buy it through our Amazon affiliate link in our episode description.

Mark: And if you want to binge watch all of Season Two of Dinner Conversations, you can do that right now on Amazon Prime.

Andrew: So thanks for watching Dinner Conversations with

Mark: Mark Lowry

Andrew: And Andrew Greer.

Mark: Turning the light on.

Andrew: One question at a time.

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.

Andrew: It's incredible. Visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

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S02, E01: A Change of Mind featuring Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf

Watch Our Other Episodes:

S02, E03: The Humanity of Billy & Ruth Graham featuring Will Graham and Gigi Graham

S02, E04: Life After Divorce featuring Crystal Lewis

S02, E05: Place in this World featuring Michael W. Smith and Ginny Owens

S02, E06: God Is In The Details featuring Kathie Lee Gifford and Rabbi Jason Sobel

5/23/19 5/23/19

Mind Matters featuring Dr. Caroline Leaf

Known for her provocative TEDx Talk, bestselling author and cognitive neuroscientist Dr. Caroline Leaf shares how our thoughts affect our brains — for better, or worse.

Known for her provocative TEDx Talk, bestselling author and cognitive neuroscientist Dr. Caroline Leaf shares how our thoughts affect our brains — for better, or worse. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift. A gift that will be matched 22 times.

Mark It's incredible. Visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

Mark: Welcome to another episode of Dinner Conversations, and today, our guest that you're sitting down and talking with is Dr. Caroline Leaf. And we first learned of her when Danny Gokey was here.

Andrew: That's right. One of her books was a huge resource for Danny moving out of depression. And she talks a lot about mind over matter, that the brain and the mind, okay, get this, are not necessarily the same thing, that the mind, you have elements and options, you have choices you can make, no matter what the brain is telling you. That this is conditioned, and this one is more mobile. And she comes from a spiritual perspective. It sounds academic, but she makes it very relatable. She's a South African woman and a beautiful accent, and I got to sit down with her while she was in Nashville for a speaking engagement. So I think a really incredible conversation, but what I'm remembering is our friend Patsy Clairmont said to me one time, "Your feelings are real, but they don't always tell the truth."

Mark: Oh!

Andrew: And I think that's really the heart of what Dr. Caroline Leaf has to talk through with us today.

Mark: Well, I'm looking forward to this conversation, and we've got one seat left at the table, and it's yours. Let's join the conversation.

Andrew: So the first thing I really want to introduce our audience to, because I'm not sure that all of them have heard this term, in fact, I was just introduced to the term, neuroplasticity, maybe a couple years ago, and then, it's come into the conversation more recently. So give me just an overview. I know you've been in the science of thought, your research and your studies have been on this mind-brain connection for years, but tell me, what does neuroplasticity mean?

Dr. Leaf: Okay, so neuroplasticity as a term came to be late 90s with the advent of the MRI and various different types of brain technology. So prior to that, it was around obviously but not as dominant until the technology came along. And what it basically means is neuro stands for brain and plastic means change, you know, it's malleable. So it's the concept of the brain can change, the brain's not fixed. And it was a radical concept because up until, honestly, up till mid-90s, it was considered that the brain couldn't change. And I did my initial research in the 80s, and I didn't agree with that philosophy. I just thought it's impossible because you could change your mind, obviously you change your behavior--

Andrew: Sure.

Dr. Leaf: Obviously your brain's gotta change. So I challenged that very early on in the 80s, and I was actually told by a lot of professors that I was ridiculous, and brain researchers are ridiculous to say that your brain can change. And I said, "Well, let me take the worst situation and show you that if you use your mind, you'll change your brain.” So, I worked with people with traumatic brain injury, which at that time, I worked with a lot of different, but I chose to do that initial research with people with traumatic brain injury because in the 80s, the brain, that kind of damage, was considered irreversible. So anyone with very traumatic brain damages, likely from a car accident, or something like that, they were considered, well, there's not much you could do for them, so just teach them to compensate. And there was very little research being done to help them. So, I said, "Well, this is a really good case,” and it's like a scenario where they absolutely are convinced nothing can change really, and worked with them, and I showed them that if you teach someone to use their mind in a very deliberate way the brain will change. Which, by implication, the mind and the brain are separate. And that worked. I showed over and over again that when you use your mind, your brain would change, and that's neuroplasticity. So it's considered some of the early work in neuroplasticity, the work that I did, and just to show you that with your mind, you can actually transform the structure of your brain and change the structure of your brain. Which is really nice to work.

Andrew: It's fascinating, so you're saying in the history of research and medicine around the brain, saying that it could not change, so this tradition was an idea of coping.

Dr. Leaf: Yes.

Andrew: Rather than actually...

Dr. Leaf: They called it compensation versus restoration. They didn't believe people could restore original function. They believed you had to just give people ways around dealing with the issue. So that was very negative, and it came from a 350 dominant philosophy, on what we call materialism or reductionism. Which is focused on the physical. And where, it's like the brain, what they focused on was that the brain produced the mind, the brain was everything, the mind didn't exist, you couldn't see it, so it wasn't important, it was some sort of artifact of brain function. And free will doesn't exist. And it's still a very dominant philosophy today, which is very awkward. I mean not awkward, it's very sad, because it creates a very negative impact on how people function. But that's what I've countered, and a lot of researchers have countered, and there's a big split in the world of science in terms of understanding this concept of neuroplasticity and how the mind can change the brain. So what you'll find is that a lot of scientists that are still pro-the-brain-being-the-big-thing and the mind being the, they'll call it promissory materialism. One day when we can prove that the mind is a physical thing, then maybe we'll consider it. For now, it's just the side effect. And those people will focus on saying things like, "The brain changes itself.” But the brain can't change itself, because if you did, the brain can do absolutely nothing. So the factor that's changing the brain is a person's ability to think, and that's confirmed by quantum physics, for example, which is considered the most accurate of sciences. So it's a very interesting concept, neuroplasticity. It just gives us hope. All of that science just tells us that, really, we can change. When we change our mind, we change our brain, we change our life, really.

Andrew: Yeah, what I hear, and that is hope, exactly. When you said hope, I was just thinking, if the brain is the end-all, be-all, and there's not this opportunity for us to change our behaviors, there's kind of a mind over matter thing to some degree, then that's, to me, a more despairing position to live as a human. You know, 'cause--

Dr. Leaf: Absolutely. I didn't choose to have a brain, but I do have a brain. So, what you're saying enlists a lot of hope. I still think there’s this association like, I love that you said this: Your mind controls your brain, your brain does not control

Both: You.

Andrew: So there's still this, and you've spoken to this already some, but there's still this direct association for a lot of people, just in language or that mind-brain, we're talking about the same thing.

Dr. Leaf: Yes.

Andrew: Do you think these are two very different things, because if the mind is able to control the brain, so we're not just a result of...

Dr. Leaf: The firing of our neurons?

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Leaf: Which is basically what materialism, reductionism, they go together. Materialism is a reductionistic philosophy that basically says the physical, reduce down to the physical. That's what reductionism means, so materialism means the focus on the physical. So when you have that concept, then they think the brain's everything. Most people, when you mention brain, they think it's mind, mind-brain. It's been so ingrained as a culture that people don't realize that they're separate. So, we have a concept called interactive dualism, which falls under a philosophy of idealism, which all those fancy words simply mean that your mind and your brain work together, but they're separate. Separate entities, and so your mind would be considered the non-physical part of you, so the spiritual part of you. And it's got different components. And then you've got your physical, which is your brain and your body, which collectively are around about 75 to 100 trillion cells. So you've got this incredible brain and body, and then you've got this non-physical huge part of us as humanity. And then the mind works through the brain and needs the brain to be able to store the memories in and uses the brain to express. So we need the physical, so the mind needs the physical, the physical feeds back into the mind. So they're separate but integrated and completely reliant on each other. So we have to pay attention to both. You can't ignore the one because it will be at the expense of the other.

Andrew: And that's nothing new, necessarily, to think about the connection mind-body-spirit.

Dr. Leaf: No, not at all, not from a Christian perspective.

Andrew: Right!

Dr. Leaf: Or a spiritual worldview, which is very much idealism. Which is very much, that's completely normal, and also your Eastern mysticism, et cetera. Basically, most people… It's just the hardcore scientific community that has got a very dominant materialistic philosophy. They'd still keep trying to stick around the… But the arguments are being flawed, literally being flawed as we speak, because the more they do the research, the more they're reliant on a human actually doing something. So, you thinking right now, if we had to link you up to an MRI machine, or an fMRI, or SPECT technology, or EEG, whatever technology, we would see a response in your brain.

Andrew: We may see nothing.

Dr. Leaf: And I think we’ll see lots, all right. I know we're going to see lots. But if you were dead, we wouldn't see a response, and that's the difference. And if we did see a response, it would be an artifact because there is no action in the brain, and there's a lot of, so you know, that's another whole...

Andrew: Sure.

Dr. Leaf: So the point here is that your brain responds to your mind. And what's happened in this world is that we've had a tremendous focus on the physical first at the expense of the spiritual in terms of the scientific discoveries of how we function as humans. And it impacts at psychology and philosophy and education and medicine to the detriment of humanity. And we've seen that detriment playing out now in our current culture.

Andrew: How are you seeing that play out in your opinion?

Dr. Leaf: Well, people are dying. Yes, people are dying 15 to 25 years younger now in this advanced state of history from preventable lifestyle diseases, which is insane. So here we're at our most advanced peak in terms of technology, medicine, developments, you know. It's incredible what we are discovering and what has been discovered, but we're at the worst. In the last 50 years, there's been a reversal in the trend. So, for decades, people were living longer because of the advances in medicine and technology. But around about 2014, between 2014 and 2015, the trend reversed. So instead of people dying, living longer, the trend reversed, people are dying younger. And the trend has got worse, and they track it back to about 50 years ago when there was a major shift in philosophy, and that philosophy was how we manage our minds and how we eat. So those two things, which are--

Andrew: I knew you were gonna bring that up. (laughing)

Dr. Leaf: You knew. Which are two lifestyle factors, so when we talk about lifestyle, we're talking about what people are doing with their mind. You know, it's living, it's life.

Andrew: Well, we have choice, and--

Dr. Leaf: Exactly, every moment that you're awake you are using your mind, and when you're asleep, you're using your mind but differently. So as human beings, we are always thinking. So that's the one effect if you don't think correctly and manage your mind correctly, we're going to have issues. And if we don't feed our bodies, 'cause you can't live without food correctly. Your body will get damaged. So that's what they're tracking it to. So there's been a reversal in trends. So when you apply very materialistic physical, reductionistic principles, you're gonna land up with what was predicted, which is with people dying younger than they should, reversal of trends. So we've gotta reverse that back again.

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Andrew: Talk about the food a little bit because, you know, on our show we have a lot of food. And it is typically farm-to-table.

Dr. Leaf: That's good, that's what you want, yeah.

Andrew: How do you make… What kind of adjustments are easy adjustments? You can talk some about the philosophy behind it, we can talk about even some of the specific detail of what is good and what is not, what our bodies can use, what our minds can use, what they cannot. But if you were just to break it down real quick, what are some easy options for people in our culture today in 2018 for eating lifestyle?

Dr. Leaf: Okay, well it's actually quite a simple answer. It's all got to do with your first question, which is neuroplasticity.

Andrew: Okay.

Dr. Leaf: So that the fact that your mind can change your brain. So we see mind as dominant, and it's dominant in eating, too. So your mind, as I've explained how the mind changes the brain, your mind actually controls your digestive system. So the benefit that you get from any food is based 80 percent on your state of mind. So that's why I have a book called Think and Eat Yourself Smart, where it's thinking. I think eating is very, very cognitive. It's very cognitive and meta-cognitive, which means that, in order for your body to digest, in order for all the parts of your digestive system to work, you have to be in a healthy frame of mind. So that's a very big factor, so you could be eating the healthiest food, if you're toxic, you're going to not get the nutrients from that food. If you're toxic in your mind and you're eating toxic food, you've got a double-whammy. And this is what is contributing a lot to people's lifestyle issues. Okay, that's one thing. There's one rule for eating. And that is eat real food, mindfully. See, so you eat real food, and then, what is real food? Real food is food that is not made in a factory. It's food that's grown without pesticides and herbicides. And, you know, farm-to-table, organic. Without all the hormones. Animals that are allowed to roam free, that kind of stuff. And that completely transforms how the food, the content of the nutrient value of the food. Also, whole, minimally processed, you know, it's very logical, it's eat in the most logical way possible. And not eat, if something's in a package, and it says, they have to justify the food by fortified, this is added, that's added, that's added. You know, I think God did okay when he created this Earth and gave us--

Andrew: Sure.

Dr. Leaf: We don't need to fix orange or fix apple or, you know, fix the cow that's been walking and roaming in the pasture. Their body's got the perfect balance of omega-6 or whatever it is that we need. So the principle's very logical. So our mind has a huge role in the food choices we make, plays a huge role. So if you're constantly watching food ads, reading all the food ads, which our culture's consumed by them, but if you're not careful, that will become part of your mental network. And then that influences your decisions. So, you're hungry, so you just grab the first thing, 'cause of its recognition value, as opposed to thinking it through, and that's why I say mindfully. You need to bring in the mindful component in terms of, one, am I making that food choice, is that healthy for me? Am I gonna bother to find out why it's actually not healthy for me? What is it doing when I eat, if I have a soda, to my body? What is it actually doing? Am I actually, and then when I'm feeling bad. Is it because I’ve actually damaged my brain and my body from this? And you kind of throw your computer on the ground and expect it to work. And that's what you’re doing when you eat bad food. So it's a simple philosophy. It's eat real food, mindfully. For example, if you are just that whole… If you're bitter or unforgiving in the example I mentioned earlier, your pancreas is part of your digestive system, one of the parts, it has multiple parts. But it plays a very important role related to emotions and eating. And it secretes 20 different peptides that are required for assimilation of nutrients, as well as controlling whether you're hungry or full. So when you eat toxic food, that whole process gets damaged. If you're in a toxic mindset, that process gets damaged. And if the pancreas doesn't work properly, the whole digestive system's thrown out of sync. So this is just examples.

Andrew: So then you're getting hungry at all times, or more frequently, or--

Dr. Leaf: And the wrong foods, so we need to think about the food we're eating. We need to think about the emotional state we're in when we're eating. And that's what I trained in Think and Eat Yourself Smart, to try and help people to actually bring that, to assimilate that. But people think, Oh, you know, well, I'll just eat what I want and say grace, and it'll change it. You know, God's not a genie. I say to people. It doesn't work like that. We have to take responsibility for our thought life, what we choose, what we choose to eat, what we choose to think about.

Andrew: Well, everything's coming back to thoughtfulness. Which I--

Dr. Leaf: Absolutely!

Andrew: I love, the home I grew up in, I feel like was always like, "What are your options, what are your choices, you have a brain," you know? And maybe my parents let me have a mind because I remember they were saying, in their mind, "You can pray about something, and there's maybe within that a communion with God that's important for a holistic aspect of living. But as far as the decisions I'm making every day, small decisions that have large outcomes. Let's say, you know, you can help do that, et cetera.

Dr. Leaf: Absolutely! Thinking has got three elements to it. And thinking is you actually activate the process of responding to a signal, you start feeling emotions, and you make a choice. That's the third part. So I always say, "Think, feel, choose.” And I explain that in The Perfect You book. I talk a lot about that there. So when you understand this three-part thing, you realize that, oh, I’m doing that all day long, I'm always reacting. And science shows us that you can control those reactions, that thinking, feeling, and choosing literally consciously every ten seconds.

Andrew: Is that a sequence?

Dr. Leaf: A sequence, it happens all the time, so it's happening very fast. And we can be consciously aware of that every ten seconds. We can train ourselves. We can train, which is phenomenal, but that's the--

Andrew: And we don't go crazy?

Dr. Leaf: Seeking after the fiction. No, because we’re actually doing it anyway.

Andrew: Okay.

Dr. Leaf: But we can tend to be reactive instead of proactive. So I'm shifting the thing, be proactive unless you, because you're always thinking. You're always feeling and you're always choosing. Every moment, you're thinking, feeling, and choosing right now. So it's the quality of that. You can be proactive in the quality.

Andrew: Yeah, I wonder if that's a little bit like in my counseling, there’s a element of forecasting based on my experience in the past, and my reactions--

Dr. Leaf: Absolutely

Andrew: Or my natural like, here’s my knee-jerk reaction, here's what I'd like my reaction to be.

Dr. Leaf: Exactly. That's exactly it because what's happened in the past is part of your story. So then when you reconceptualize it, say, "Okay, well, this is where I'm at, this is the issue, this is the bad choice, this is the toxic results that's pulled me down into that place of depression or anxiety," which are simply adjectives for describing how you feel at that moment. They're not diseases, they're adjectives. And if you hang onto an adjective, it's much easier because you can change your adjective. It's simply a description. Whereas if it's a disease, you feel helpless. So it's hopeful to realize this is an adjective, a description, a big umbrella adjective of something that I have gone through, or a multitude of things that I've gone through. And if you can identify them over a process, you don't ask why but you identify, to recognize them as triggers and you reconceptualize them. So you don't forget about them, you don't suppress them. They shape you, they’re part of your story, but you take them out of the Imperfect You zone into the Perfect You zone, now they're your story. Or to quote Christianese, they're now your testimony. Your trials become your testimony, to use words that people are familiar with.

Mark: Man, I'm enjoying this conversation. It makes me think about, I’ve always heard all my life, that we come from original sin. And I've always suspected that we really came from original virtue. And come to find out, a pastor recently pointed out to me that Genesis 1:3 is where the fall happens. But Genesis 1:1 is when God said, "It is good, it is good. It is good, it is good.” You started out good, you started out a winner. You beat 500 million others to the first race you had. You made it to the egg first! You were born a winner!

Andrew: You talking about sperm?

Mark: I don't even know!

Andrew: I do agree though. I love that idea of original virtue. I first heard that from you.

Mark: Yes, original virtue.

Andrew: Because that is working, I think--

Mark: We were infected by sin. We come from God. We were originally virtuous. That's what I think.

Andrew: And that gives us something to work towards, not to avoid. We don’t just have to avoid sin. We can work towards our virtuous self, which I believe is our reflection.

Mark: Found in Jesus!

Andrew: That's right! So we're gonna continue the conversation with Dr. Caroline Leaf, again talking about mind over matter and talking about this interesting concept of the Perfect You.

Andrew: I’ve got several more things to talk about, and most are to ask about The Perfect You, you know, that title, you’ve referenced that a couple times, moving from the Imperfect You zone to the Perfect You zone. That title's intimidating at first. Like, when I first, and maybe that's messages that have been implanted in us, like, I can't be perfect, I am not perfect yet. I'm gonna set this up. At the same time, I have had a strongly held belief since I was a child that we are created good by our good Creator. And now you have this conversation of original sin versus original virtue, which you hear a lot about, and that can be a whole other theological conversation.

Dr. Leaf: Absolutely.

Andrew: But I tend to lean into the original virtue because I believe that gives us something to become rather than not to be.

Dr. Leaf: Exactly.

Andrew: You know? So maybe just explain a little bit the title The Perfect You because it feels daunting.

Dr. Leaf: You set that up really well. And I did that on purpose because I'm so tired of people saying, "I'm not perfect, you know,” as an excuse to continue that behavior. And it does become an excuse, where you can think, "Oh, well it’s," you know, from a Christianese perspective, "It's original sin, it’s there, it's in my DNA,

Andrew: It's how I was made.

Dr. Leaf: “I’m gonna keep myself down.” You know, there's a hopelessness built in that's very materialistic. It's Christians becoming materialists and reducing God's power in them to something that they feel that they can't control. Meanwhile, if you look really at humanity, what we have, it's structurally, let's look at… Let me try and make this as simple as I can. Scientifically, as I mentioned earlier on, there isn't anything physically inside of us that's designed to handle anything that's toxic. So anything that is not of a love nature, so fighting, anger, irritation, murder, all that bad stuff, from whatever gradient, the whole scale of bad, there's nothing in us to handle that. There's no wiring. We don't have fear circuits. We don't have irritation circuits. We don't have alcohol circuits. We don't have ADHD circuits. That's nonsense that we’ve been sold as a general culture. And I say culture 'cause it’s a global cultural phenomenon. What we have is beautiful, perfect, physical natures that have the power of the mind that simply changes the physical nature. So the mind is where the power is residing to actually damage the physical nature. And so therefore, where does original sin come in? Every time you make a decision, you wire that physically into your brain. So, every thought is real, real, built on memory. They're not just an ethereal thing. They are very real structural components made of protein and chemicals and neurotransmitters, and you build them. And you mentioned earlier on in the first question, or the second question, it’s that mind over matter thing. It totally is mind over matter. Your mind creates matter. So what you create does matter. Because when you are thinking, feeling, and choosing, as you choose, you cause your DNA to express. So, the thinking, feeling part is generating action in your brain, a signal. When you choose, that is like switching on the light. It causes genes to express, and they make stuff. And that stuff eventually becomes proteins, and eventually becomes structures in your brain that look like trees. And they hold the imprints in this quantum format inside little computers in your brain, of your thoughts. So your thoughts are held as quantum action inside proteins that are like little neurobiological computers. So what I'm going to here is a lot of detail of the physical nature of thoughts, that you build them. And they're constantly changing, they're constantly being redesigned by every moment that you think about those things. They are open to change, that's neuroplasticity. So now we're going full circle.

Andrew: Full circle, yeah.

Dr. Leaf: Okay, so, that's the Perfect You nature. So we see from the fields of psycho-neuroimmunology and epigenetics and many different fields, we see a direct link between incorrect thinking and physical damage in the brain and the body, producing mind and physical issues. That there is so much science confirming that. It's an absolutely accepted science.

Andrew: Sure.

Dr. Leaf: Now this passes through the generations. So, every thought that you think, undealt with or dealt with, passes through the DNA, so that little physical structure passes through the DNA, through the sperm and the ova to the next generation and the next generation and the next generation. So it either passes through dealt with or undealt with, but it passes through. So when you talk about original sin in the Christianese, in science we're talking about the imprints that have come through our DNA. But they are asleep. So what you have inside of you when you're born, is the propensity to act in certain ways because of the familial pattern, but it doesn't mean you're going to.

Andrew: So it's like a clean slate...

Dr. Leaf: You have perfection.

Andrew: Okay.

Dr. Leaf: And on top of it, you have experience that’s come through the generations. Because we are leaving imprints as we move through generations. We imprint each other. God set us up as having entanglement, which is a quantum term for "we're connected,” and we influence. In Him we live, move, and have our being, so that connection is built amongst humanity. So we connect, we affect each other. That's why we need each other. That's why you recognized deep down, you needed community when you were going through that, 'cause you knew that that was going to be one of the key factors in your healing. Every year, annually, more people die from loneliness than any other disease known to mankind.

Andrew: Like just their heart stops? Or because then they behave, they react in a--

Dr. Leaf: Loneliness, being alone. Loneliness, cutting people off. They might be with people but not connecting.

Andrew: And that literally--

Dr. Leaf: Lack of love, locking out love, et cetera, so that the whole, it's... Loneliness has got a lot of different components, but it's basically lack of love. So more people are dying from that than anything else. So the core thing here is what we need to understand is that we're not designed for, we're not wired for fear and all that stuff, we are wired for love. So our Perfect You nature, that's our core. Stuff comes through from the generations, that's your original sin. It's a propensity, it's not an actuality. So you decide--

Andrew: You have choice.

Dr. Leaf: You have choice. You could say, "Ooh gosh, my family's like this, so I'm gonna be like this.” Just the fear, you may not even verbalize it. But you may have that anxious thought inside your head. And that anxious thought inside your head is sufficient to explode that in your brain and activate it.

Andrew: That feeds it, yeah.

Dr. Leaf: So it comes alive. This physical structure that's asleep, like a cocoon. You know how butterfly is— Before it's a butterfly, it's in a cocoon?

Andrew: Mm-hm.

Dr. Leaf: Okay, that is how it comes through, cocooned. So you can either destroy that cocoon or you can activate and release, but it's not a butterfly that comes out, it's a distorted version of a butterfly. I just wanted to give that an adage or something. 'Cause people think, Oh, well, if it's come through, I have no control. You have absolute control over everything that has passed through generations. And that's what we're not taught.

Andrew: I mean, and there, you think about the, what is it, the sins of our forefathers, or whatever. It's kind of alluding to what you're saying, that there’s these imprints

Dr. Leaf: The sins of our forefathers ran through to the third and the fourth generation. But the scriptures also say we're not responsible for our father's sins.

Andrew: Yes.

Dr. Leaf: So that means that we are not gonna be held accountable for what your dad or your grandfather or grandmother or whatever did. But you're accountable for what you do with that pattern.

Andrew: Which again, reiterates that we all have choice.

Dr. Leaf: Responsibility.

Andrew: Yes, which does then, which I think, culturally, so, it's hard for me to even wrap my, there's so many nuances culturally now, of how we think, how we encourage others and ourselves to behave and to respond. But I keep thinking then in our current culture that a little bit of, like, I feel like we’re diminishing ourselves as humans a bit.

Dr. Leaf: Oh, absolutely. We've lost our humanity to a certain extent.

Andrew: We're not just mammals walking around. Like we are these unique individuals, which I believe is a very spiritual thing. And so I keep thinking that, it's almost, it’s like in a culture that seems to prize choice, actually we have very little choice or would exercise it.

Dr. Leaf: We're told we, we're told we have very little choice. And that comes through from the 350-year dominant materialistic philosophy. It started back with Newton, and Newton never intended this to happen 'cause he was very much all about human choice. And classical physics and materialism, all that stuff that focuses on the physical, has turned us into biological, well, not turned us into, 'cause you'll never remove that, but it says that we, basically indicates that we are like a robot, like a biological automaton, and that we have no choice, and it's pre-programmed in our genes. And out of that comes the whole philosophy of how you should manage mind issues. So, we have our beautiful bodies, we have God giving us this phenomenal medicine to help us understand how to fix when things are broken. That works, it's called the biomedical model. So we can use materialism and reductionism when it comes to the actual treatment of a physical ailment. But the cause behind the physical ailment cannot be treated in the same way as a biomedical model. So you can't treat the physical means in the same way as you treat the mind. The mind and the body need two different treatments. They're interactive, but they need two different treatments. So this whole cultural thing you're speaking about now, if I see you as a robot, and you have depression, I'm gonna say to you, "You have a disease, and it's in your genes, or there's a neurobiologic.” There's no science for that, there's no science proving, even though you're told that it's a chemical imbalance, there's absolutely zero science confirming that. Billions of dollars later, there's absolutely no confirmation of that, and there never will be because it's impossible because of the uniqueness of humanity and because depression is not a disease. Depression is an adjective. Anxiety is an adjective. Schizophrenia is an adjective. These are descriptions of people's behaviors as a result of an issue that has been a reaction to life circumstances.

Andrew: But they may have had a propensity for, you're saying, may be born with…

Dr. Leaf: Maybe a propensity, a propensity-

Andrew: Or they went through stuff.

Dr. Leaf: By still making sure, circumstantial things that, based on how we respond.

Andrew: Well, it is. I mean, this is how important our choice is.

Dr. Leaf: Well, it is, it is, and even if there's so much of an intention, because you think of a child who's abused or a young girl that's trafficked, or something like that. They're going to obviously have toxic issues in their brain. They're going to have damage because they're going through very abnormal situations, and they're doing their best to cope, et cetera, but it's frightening and terrible. Now that's, you can't blame them for that. They're a victim, but they’ve got stuff in their brain that's going to increase their vulnerability. To tell that person that they have a disease of depression is an insult to their humanity. What we need to recognize is, What's your story? What happened, that you got to the place that you couldn't get out of bed? What is your story? How can I connect with you as a human? How can I love you enough to help you feel that you're not gonna be judged, that you can actually tell your story, and that, as humanity, we can love each other, to help each other face our issues, when we do that, we can then fix and change our choices. So you can't change the past, but you can change the way that the past, the process of the past, plays out in your mind. See that?

Andrew: Yes.

Dr. Leaf: That's reconceptualization.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Leaf: You cannot change the past, but you can change the way that the process of the past plays out in your mind. And that brings healing into your brain and your body, and helps you to cope and puts you back in the Perfect You nature. So you're using your Perfect You nature, which is this powerful part of us, to reconceptualize what’s happened and our bad decisions and our reactions. So we're proactively redesigning how our life has played out up to this point.

Andrew: I've heard, one of the most empowering things for a human to know, that no matter what their circumstances are, they have options, choice.

Dr. Leaf: Oh, absolutely.

Andrew: That that is the most empowering thing. So, to continue to realize that, what I hear is, again, we cannot change every one of our circumstances, we don't choose, maybe, every one of our circumstances, but to choose how we respond and to choose how we move forward from circumstances, that's completely our decision.

Dr. Leaf: Absolutely.

Andrew: And our opportunity

Dr. Leaf: Absolutely.

Andrew: And our responsibility.

Dr. Leaf: Absolutely. I always say that one of the things, people that know me have heard me say this a million times, that you cannot control the events and circumstances of your life, you can’t. 'Cause they're the result of other people's choices. But you can control your reactions. And so in the moment, you may not be able to control, you know, your reaction in the moment will be self-defense, whatever that is. And obviously, if it’s a traumatic experience, it's fear, et cetera. But there is a point where you can start learning how to control and change those. So you've got power over that, so that your past doesn't own you.

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Mark: Yeah! So when we have our next conversation, you can have coffee with us. Let's get back to the conversation.

Andrew: Let me ask you a quick question about--

Dr. Leaf: Quick question? You sure that anything I answer's quick?

Andrew: Yeah, I know, I got two more. Okay, when I think back to growing up, I'm interested in kind of reflecting this in how we rear our children, or the messages we tell them, or how we help them help…

Both: Themselves.

Andrew: Right? Sometimes, with my, I was the youngest of three boys, and my mother's a very practical woman, is not ruled by her emotions at all. I feel like she makes decisions. So she would probably sit down with us and go, "I don't know what you're talking about.” But I would say she'd enlist a lot of what we're talking about. Maybe it's a little easier for her, more natural, and maybe she had more of the propensity for that than some negative things. But she was fine with encouraging me to ignore my brothers in certain things, just ignore them. Is that a way... I do feel I still do that as an adult. There's times where I, instead of reacting to an intense feeling, like maybe I feel left out, maybe I feel like I don't belong, maybe that's even communicated to me, instead of responding immediately to that, I don't know that I ignore it because I feel like I try to be a fairly self-aware person, but I may not respond to it right in that moment as a way of, I think, to maybe to keep hostility down or to keep from having a violent response or to check my anger or whatever. Is ignoring ever an option? (laughs)

Dr. Leaf: All you're doing with ignoring is you're still reacting.

Andrew: Okay.

Dr. Leaf: So, you've chosen, but you've done something that's protective. So when you ignore, what you're ignoring, is you've gotta define ignore. Ignore is not the same as suppress.

Andrew: Okay.

Dr. Leaf: Suppress wouldn't help.

Andrew: Okay.

Dr. Leaf: Suppress if you don't explode, you can't avoid a situation forever in your life. You can't pretend something didn't happen to you. It's happened. So if someone is being unkind or nasty or bullying or whatever, and you’re living under those conditions, when you ignore it, what you're doing is protecting your spirit. So, it's kind of like putting on a suit of armor and deflecting and not allowing it to go into you, and I think that's what your mom was telling you, was that you mustn't take what people say to you, the teasing, whatever it was, and take that into your spirit. Because, and that's Christianese. Scientifically, you were thinking about it, you were feeling it, and you're choosing, so therefore, you're building a physical structure in your brain that said, "I'm feeling this fear, this anxiety, this worry, this is horrible."

Andrew: Sure.

Dr. Leaf: This is terrible, whatever, you're building that thing, and then you think about it. And whatever you think about grows. And when it grows, it gets energy, so then it becomes a dominant pattern of thinking. So that it blocks your ability to function. So your mom was telling you, don't allow that to happen. She may not have known the scientific description, but that's essentially what you're doing when you ignore. So you've gotta have ignore in terms of, am I ignoring to protect? Am I recognizing and not allowing that to penetrate? Or am I ignoring in terms of suppressing?

Andrew: Sure, and to have an opportunity, with both my parents, there was always opportunities to talk about anything.

Dr. Leaf: That's great.

Andrew: If you can say to a child, “Ignore”…

Dr. Leaf: Very important.

Andrew: Which, meaning deflect, but hey, we can talk about it. How's that make you feel?

Dr. Leaf: Exactly.

Andrew: Okay, so all of this, I hear love feeds love, fear feeds fear. No wonder we have a culture of fear because seems we feed that. But when I think, okay, when I think in the Christianese, we often, again, we tend to diminish self-help, we tend to run the other way, so self-help is, we don't wanna do things ourselves kinda thing, we have to just--

Dr. Leaf: Always been trained, we've been trained wrong.

Andrew: It's just a message, right?

Dr. Leaf: Yeah.

Andrew: But what we've talked about with several different guests this season is that actually to better myself, to be more aware of myself, to strive for health in my mind, in my emotions, and in my body is actually to help better everyone else in my vicinity.

Dr. Leaf: Oh, absolutely.

Andrew: Is that true, how is that, you know?

Dr. Leaf: Oh yes, no, that's a totally-- Spiritually we know that, we're designed for community, we're designed to help each other. We're designed to operate in love, you know, all those principles… Paul in Ephesians, in the first few chapters of Ephesians, Paul talks about our identity, so, the Perfect You. And then, from then on, from about chapter four onwards, Paul talks about what this looks like in community. So, scripturally, it's totally instinctively we also know. Scientifically, absolutely, we have a principle called entanglement that I briefly mentioned in one of the answers earlier on, which is a principle in quantum physics. It's the primary law of quantum physics, and it's the law of relationship. Entanglement means relationship. So, in particles, on a scientific level, when particles are put into relationship with each other, you can separate them huge distances, and they still are connected. So if one does something, the other one does it at the same time. So there's this across time and space gap that seems to disappear because of the nature of relationships. So we see that principle playing out in science, and we can translate that back into humanity. So, yeah.

Andrew: So science and spirituality is not disconnected by anyone.

Dr. Leaf: I don't know why anyone ever said in the first place, we all acknowledge God created everything.

Andrew: Yeah, so he--

Dr. Leaf: Science simply tells us how it works.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Leaf: It's the most logical thing. I never understand that illogic. It's almost as though sometimes the Christian world has completely taken the intelligence out of their functioning.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Leaf: And turned into robots, quoting Christianese. And that may sound harsh, but if you think about what you're saying, you would think differently and say things differently. You know what I'm saying? I'm talking--

Andrew: Oh, I agree, I just wanted you to say it! (laughing) No, I totally agree, yeah, it’s, in my mind, science only opens us up more to the beautiful mystery that is God, and the fact is, we’ll never get to the end of Him. You know, so it's just more for us to discover and uncover. And, again, what I hear, bring back to the Perfect You, is to find our own, to discover, to uncover our Perfect You is really to engage in the world around us and helping everyone discover the Perfect You.

Dr. Leaf: Absolutely.

Andrew: Thank you.

Dr. Leaf: Pleasure, thank you.

Andrew: Yeah! I love it, I could do this all day, I think we're getting good at the time. (laughing)

Mark: Thank you, Dr. Caroline Leaf, for that incredible conversation.

Andrew: Yeah, I had a great conversation, so grateful, and we hope you'll join us next time, right here on Dinner Conversations.

Mark: Turning the light on, one question at a time.

Mark: Now one time I was at the airport, and I passed the bookstore, and I saw that, The Perfect You, and I thought, someone has written my biography.

Andrew: I think the only way there would be a book titled The Perfect You that would be about you would be if it was an autobiography.

Mark: (groans) I got it. That means I wrote it, right?

Andrew: Yeah!

Mark: Well, we sure hope you’ve enjoyed this episode with Dr. Caroline Leaf.

Andrew: Yeah, she's smart.

Mark: She's very smart.

Andrew: You can find one of our favorite books of hers, The Perfect You, through our Amazon affiliate links in our episode description.

Mark: And if you wanna binge watch all of Season Two of Dinner Conversations, you can do that right now on Amazon Prime.

Andrew: So thanks for watching Dinner Conversations with

Mark: Mark Lowry.

Andrew: And Andrew Greer.

Mark: Right here, turning the light on!

Andrew: One question at a time.

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

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Give generously here: fh.org/dinner.

Don’t Miss an Episode! Subscribe Today:

S02, E01: A Change of Mind featuring Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf

Watch Our Other Episodes:

S02, E03: The Humanity of Billy & Ruth Graham featuring Will Graham and Gigi Graham

S02, E04: Life After Divorce featuring Crystal Lewis

S02, E05: Place in this World featuring Michael W. Smith and Ginny Owens

S02, E06: God Is In The Details featuring Kathie Lee Gifford and Rabbi Jason Sobel

S02, E07: Winning Takes Work featuring Scott Hamilton and Paula Trujillo

5/16/19 5/16/19

The Thin Line Between Priest and Prostitute featuring Becca Stevens and Russ Taff

Becca Stevens is an Episcopal priest. She is also a CNN Hero known for her work in helping women surviving prostitution and addiction heal and transform their lives through the holistic treatment and employment of Thistle Farms, the organization she founded. Also, Grammy winner Russ Taff — longtime friend of Becca's — sings a song.

Becca Stevens is an Episcopal priest. She is also a CNN Hero known for her work in helping women surviving prostitution and addiction heal and transform their lives through the holistic treatment and employment of Thistle Farms, the organization she founded. Also, Grammy winner Russ Taff — longtime friend of Becca's — sings a song. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times!

Andrew: It's incredible. Visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

Mark: Today's guest is Becca Stevens, and Becca is an Episcopal priest, and years ago, 21 years ago, Russ Taff said, "Mark, you gotta hear this lady speak.” He'd been goin' to her church, so I said, “Okay," and I went and heard her, was blown away. Not only is she a great speaker, she's got a great heart, and she started a ministry called Thistle Farms.

Andrew: Yeah, this amazing ministry that helps women in vulnerable places, really restore them back into society and culture. It helps heal them and also employ them. In fact, we had our first tea party on Dinner Conversations. Did you enjoy the tea?

Mark: It was delicious.

Andrew: Yes, helped grown and packaged and sold by women who are helped by Thistle Farms. She's a wonderful author of a book called Love Heals and often says that love is the most powerful force to change our world today.

Mark: And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours! So let's join the conversation.

Becca: One of the things I remember when I started this work 21 years ago, the first woman I met in the program, who's now the national director, started programs all over the country. She was in a cast. She was just off the street, just beaten and raped, like so many women. I go into the house three weeks into the program, and she is dancing. I mean, she is moving, and there is nobody in there, but she's playing gospel music. And I was like, "What are you doin’?" I'm like, she's drunk.

Mark: Yeah.

Becca: Right?

Mark: Yeah.

Becca: And she goes, I’m having a Holy Ghost party. And I was like, "Well, what's that?” You know, tell me, and we laughed and laughed, and then I think that was the first time I cried, thinkin', this is a lot of work, but also, this is going to change my life. I'm going to learn how to be moved by the Spirit, where I dance with a cast on my leg.

Mark: Huh. Did that start the Thistle, is that--

Andrew: The Thistle Farms?

Mark: Thistle Farms, is that where it started?

Andrew: What was the genesis?

Mark: What was it, yeah.

Becca: Mm-hmm. That's where it started.

Andrew: Was it that morning?

Becca: Right there in Nashville on Park. Well, so that was the first house. She was one of the first five people. It was 1997. And I was just like, let's just move five women into a home. No authority in the house. Don't charge 'em anything, and let's just see where it goes, and you and Russ helped a lot, get that goin'.

Mark: It was fun.

Becca: It's awesome.

Andrew: It was originally called the Magdalene House, right?

Becca: So the residences are still called Magdalene. So the whole branding is Thistle Farms, how we put the products out in the marketplace, so like now we're in every Whole Foods in the country. People are serious about branding, and they want it to all be consistent. So everything is called Thistle Farms.

Andrew: And people can know, they can go look up, they can find out about Thistle Farms, but I would like just for us at the table to talk, maybe while we serve some tea, about one of the products here from Thistle Farms, but talk about kinda the holistic program that is Thistle Farms, from the coming into the home for two years, right? And we're talking about women who were caught up in vulnerable places in their family lives, relationships. I mean, what have you seen in the stories--

Becca: I don't think they're caught up. I mean, I think it's women who've been prostituted, addicted, imprisoned, raped, jailed, beaten, abused, sexually assaulted. All those things we say. I mean, it is about failed systems in communities from when the women are kids, and how it takes communities and people loving them without judgment back.

Mark: Here, let me do it.

Becca: Let me do it.

Mark: You wanna do it, okay.

Becca: Do you know, in tea--

Mark: Well, you're our guest.

Becca: I know, but tea, the serving is the place of honor.

Mark: Oh, okay, who knew?

Andrew: You are in our place of honor.

Becca: And this is my tea so I would love to serve you.

Mark: Well, tell us more. What else do we need to learn? This place of honor is the server.

Becca: Well, if you don't know that, there's probably a lot.

Mark: I knew nothing.

Becca: I don't understand this, though.

Mark: We never had tea. You just pour it in and put that on.

Andrew: I think it just opens it up, yeah.

Becca: Oh, it just opens up.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mark: Uh-huh. It's an open.

Becca: So tricky.

Mark: Uh-huh.

Andrew: I mean, one, how did you first see the need? I would say sometimes in our, I don't know if you wanna call it places of privilege or whatever, seeing is the issue to me. How do I know when someone…? Where did you find these first women, or discover them in their plights, in their journeys of wanting freedom? Were they wanting freedom from their situations?

Becca: I met the women when I was, I was already a minister, so I was doin' some feeding programs on the streets. I had gone to jail, just to interview some of the women and see what was out there, and the stories I was hearin’, it was like people need a sanctuary. They need a place to go, and all the institutions that I'm involved in aren't doin' it. I mean, the church isn't building shelters like cathedrals. It's mostly just done on the cheap, and people don't feel really loved and worthy, and it was like if we’re gonna talk about healing women who really have had just the short side of everything, we're gonna do it in a lavish, beautiful way that feels really safe, and gives 'em time and space. And that's what we did, and it was easy, but I think that always, the part that has just undone me the most is that I don't think it’s ever been just about helping a few women here and there. To me, it's always about opening up a conversation where you can say, "How are we diseased? How are we, as a culture, diseased? Why do we still buy and sell women as commodities? Why do we keep the secrets of childhood trauma in people's lives?” I mean, that's what I hope. I hope the products and the story help all of us feel like we can believe love heals us too from all the secrets of our own sexual shame or fears.

Andrew: You wrote a book called Love Heals, and I think about that, the title, Love Heals, just those two words, because I have been confronted by some people in my life at times where I believe, I've heard, with Thistle Farms, and you say many times, love is the most powerful force for changing our world. But I've heard so many--

Becca: I'm worried about y’all's tea while you're talkin’. I'm listening.

Andrew: I've heard so many times.

Mark: His questions are very long.

Andrew: Yeah.

Becca: I got lost.

Andrew: Y'all are the same cookie, huh?

Mark: Hey, the last sentence, he'll get it--

Andrew: It's comin'.

Becca: Okay, it'll just wrap up.

Mark: It'll just wrap up.

Andrew: So the love is the most powerful force. And love heals. I'll get contested sometimes that love really is not, it's not just love, that that's not practical enough. That's not grassrootsy enough that we--

Mark: How does love heal?

Andrew: Does love, and does it truly heal? I think people are still asking that question.

Becca: Yes. The answer's yes, done. No, but here's, I think--

Andrew: How have you seen it--

Mark: But how?

Becca: It's because our love isn't usually practical and relevant to people's lives. We make it like this romanticized ideal, but what does love look like? If I'm comin' into jail and off the streets, what's love look like? Maybe it's this beautiful, brand new, how do you say it, Posturepedic, beautiful bed with a comforter, and you give me space and money. That's what it looks like, so I can go to the doctor--

Andrew: Opportunity.

Becca: And I can go to the dentist and get my teeth fixed. Six months down the road, love won't look like that. It'll look like a job. It'll look like people who are advocates in court, so I can see my children again. Six months after that, it might look like a car. Help me get a good deal on a car, and love needs to be practical and relevant. All of it is--

Mark: And it's action, love is action.

Becca: Yeah, and it's daily, it's like--

Andrew: And relationship, if you're not knowing someone, you don't know that their next step is need a job or their next step is--

Becca: Right, and it's helping people. I mean, giving them the time and the space so they can do that healing work. I think it's important, but I also think, no offense to the music industry, but I mean we've been kinda sold a bad good of sales about what love is. I mean, like--

Andrew: In what manner?

Becca: Well, I mean, love is kinda boring sometimes, and it's daily, and it’s like, it's a cup of tea. It's not like this big romantic thing that's gonna happen, and if I don't find that, then it's unrequited and I'm unfulfilled and--

Andrew: If I don't feel it.

Becca: And I got the blues. It's like, oh my gosh, how about love is saying, "I will show up here today and I will show up here tomorrow and I'll pour you a cup of tea and we'll eat a scone together."

Andrew: It's consistent service. I mean as we serve one another. Okay, so I was reading on the website, Thistle Farms, heal, empower, and employ is this kind of mission statement of Thistle Farms. I think of that. Okay, maybe not mission statement.

Becca: I just don't love that word empower very much.

Mark: Oh, empower?

Andrew: Okay. So what would you say, yeah, like?

Becca: I don't know. It feels like--

Mark: You don't wanna empower people?

Becca: Well, I just feel like women have power. The women we serve have power.

Mark: So you don't need to give them power.

Andrew: So it's just more of kind of bringing the power that's already there.

Mark: Or revealing the power that's in 'em, maybe.

Becca: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, as part of--

Mark: Do you analyze-- Like I've noticed, when he said a while ago, "caught up,” you analyze words carefully.

Becca: Mm-hmm. So you said the women are caught up. Aren't they kind of-- I mean, an addiction is, it's not always the environment's fault, too.

Andrew: Or our codependency. I mean, I'm codependent.

Mark: It's not just the church not doin' their job. It's you gotta take some responsibility. I mean Jesus asked the guy sitting there, He said, "Do you want to get well?” Before He healed him. So, how do you say that they're not caught up?

Becca: I guess, I mean, they are caught up, obviously, but I guess, on average, the women that I've served for 21 years are first raped between the ages of seven and 11.

Mark: Oh my God. I'm not, yeah. So they were--

Andrew: Not given the easiest life.

Mark: Not given even any choice.

Becca: Sometimes the women say it this way. "This isn’t a second chance for me. This is my first chance. I never had a chance."

Mark: Oh, wow.

Becca: "My mom sold me to her boyfriends. I learned how to do what I do at the age of six."

Mark: And that's the sex trafficking we're talking--

Andrew: Yeah, human trafficking.

Mark: They're involved in human trafficking. I mean, I'm literally oblivious to that.

Andrew: What has your experience of that been?

Mark: It's going on right here in Nashville, right here in my own state?

Andrew: And all over the world.

Mark: All over. Not just in foreign countries.

Andrew: I mean, human trafficking, modern day slavery, we've learned, as higher number slavery, more people enslaved in the world today than ever before. That's something I would have never known.

Mark: Who would've thought?

Becca: I know, right.

Andrew: But you're experiencing this on a day-to-day level. You're seeing women who are--

Mark: But when your mother sells you, that is as low as you can go. Their mother sold them to--

Becca: I mean, yes, that happens. People have addictions, and it's like, if you are a drug dealer and you can sell a drug once, think how often you can sell a young woman.

Andrew: Sure.

Becca: Thousands of times. It's valuable, and so on average--

Mark: Are we making progress?

Becca: Oh my gosh, I think so. I think it's weird because when we started out with that first house, the language wasn't the same. There was no language around human trafficking. Same issues, no language around it. So we would think they were, teenage girls on the streets that were just, you’re saying, caught up in the life. They were crack whores.

Andrew: There was a fault in it.

Becca: I mean, there was awful language around what those young girls were goin' through, and now, there's a lot more compassion, especially by church groups and people who have hearts to be able to make changes, so the thing I've seen with the word trafficking, with the new understanding of how childhood trauma really sets people up for a life on the streets and in prison, is that we're changin' laws. They've shut down Backpage. It was the largest place for exploiting women in America. It's was seized two weeks ago. Done, and now, they’re seizing assets and properties and they're expunging records. Things are happening and they're changing.

Mark: That’s fantastic.

Becca: And there's all this new information around trauma-informed care. You've heard of that. That wasn't there either about, oh my gosh, part of the reason that you're out of control is because of trauma in your kid, in your childhood.

Andrew: And that's what I was gonna say. Yeah, trauma-informed care says we're taking it to new levels. Not just shutting down the back end or the logistics of how people are getting sold or getting trapped into sex slavery, but saying, as you come out, and not just leaving 'em there, but saying, "Okay, so your life looks this way because your experience has been this, which at some level, you had no choice about."

Becca: Right.

Regina Mullins, Thistle Farms Education & Outreach

Regina: Me, I am Regina Mullins. Spent years on the street. Lost everything, includin' my three sons, custody of my three sons, my home, ended up on the streets, bein' in and out of dope houses, different motels, hotels, alleyways, abandoned houses, dope houses. I remember one evenin’, I was just so tired of gettin' high. I didn't want to get high anymore. I didn't want to turn one more trick. I didn't, I just wanted to go home. I wanted to be with my sons, and I prayed and I looked at God, and I was like, "Help me. Can't you see I want to be out of this?” It was like a cop car came, the police car came down the street, and I was a known prostitute at that time, and they stopped and they were like, "If you be on this street when we come back, we're gonna take you to jail.” And what I did was I reached down to pick up a brick, and I threw it at the police car. And when I did that, of course, guess what? They took me to jail. That started the beginnin' of a new life, which I didn't believe that at that time. I had made parole, which scared me to death. I was thinkin', what am I gonna do? I couldn't go home. I had burned that bridge, and one of the ladies that I had been incarcerated with called in. She's like, "This lady has created this home for us to come to.” She's like, "She's an Episcopal priest, and we can stay for free for two years.” And I was just like, an Episcopal priest? No, what does that mean? I'm finna be in confession every day, or she's gonna be have me doing Abba Fathers and Hail Marys, what? I'm not finna come and you're sayin' for two years? I just did two and a half years, and I'm not finna go and live under a priest. And I called her and she said, yeah, I qualified. I could maybe come and meet her and get into the program. I just kept thinking that there was some kind of hook because nobody is finna to allow you to live in their home for two years free. When we pulled up to the house, and these women that I had been incarcerated with come running out of the house, and they're lookin' like, I don't know, different. When I walked in, it was just so beautiful. There was furniture, there was, we walked down the hall, it was just plants everywhere, and I walk into this bedroom, and there is a real bed in the place with a beautiful new comforter and curtains to match it, and I'm walkin' to the kitchen and it got real dishes and pots and pans, and I turned around and I looked at them and I started cryin’. I was reminded of what home was, what a home, what a real home was. And one Saturday, we were doin' the chores in the house, and one of the girls said, "Have you met Becca?” And I'm like, "No, where is she? Is she here?” 'Cause I was dyin' to meet this priest. So we walk up the hall and I'm lookin' at her, and it was just surprising because she had on, what I say, we called Daisy Duke shorts back in the day, and she had a midriff top on, and she had her second son hanging on her hip, standing there, and she was barefoot. Where's the black shirt? Where is the collar? And she started to laugh at me, and I was just like still in shock of, she seemed like us. And she said, "If there's a line between priest and prostitute, then it's a very, very thin line.” She said, "The difference with us is that I can share my brokenness with you and you can share your brokenness with me, and we can come together and find a solution to help each other heal.” I was lookin' for judgment, I guess, but there was none, and it was like we were on the same playing ground and this woman might be for real. It's like God worked through her to show me, okay, you want your life back? This is how you're gonna get it. I used to tell Becca, "My thing with love was, you do somethin' for me, I'll do somethin' for you.” And we found out that that's not it at all. That's why Becca says that love is the most powerful force that can heal our land, and we say that love heals because it really does, and it's not about going out and saying, you need God, you need some holy oils, throw it all over you. You need to be ready, and here's a place that you can come when you're ready. When you're tired, when you're sick and tired of that last piece of dope, I don't wanna do it anymore, I don't want anybody touching me anymore, then we have a home, not a halfway house. Not a treatment center, but a home. Excuse me, but a home. And because of that, all those years ago, in ’97, November of '97, yesterday, January the 16, 2019, y’all, I got 23 years! 23 years! Yes, because she threw me a lifeline, and I ain't have to go back to the streets. I've gotten a chance to be a mother again. I got a chance to get my boys back in my life. I got a chance to go back to school and get more educated. I got a chance to hold down a real job, a job that I love doin’. That's why we've gotta keep carrying this message. We gotta keep going to the streets. We gotta keep going to the neighborhoods. We gotta keep talkin' to the little girls. We gotta keep doin' drug awareness seminars in schools. We've gotta keep it goin’ because love does heal.

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Mark: Yeah, so when we have our next conversation, you can have coffee with us. Let's get back to the conversation.

Andrew: But now they have a choice. I think about you and your work and the people who work alongside you, empowering. How do you empower a woman who's shrouded in shame from potentially choices she wasn't even able to make? How do you uncover? We said empower, not like--

Mark: Therapy.

Andrew: How do you uncover that power?

Becca: Yeah, therapy is right. And decent work, I mean, the reason we started a whole home and body care company was because women were doing great therapy, but they were still poor as dirt, so you're still vulnerable. The violence and vulnerability of poverty is unbelievable. So if you're talkin' about love, then you have to talk about economic freedom for the women. So it's like, guess what, you get to choose what your kids wear because you're gonna go out and buy the clothes. You're gonna get to decide what kind of car you drive and where you live, and you're gonna decide who you have relationships with. If this is an unhealthy person, get out, but--

Andrew: So offering choices maybe for the first time.

Mark: For someone just tuning in or just watchin' today, who'd never heard of Becca, never heard of Thistle Farms, how many women do you think Magdalene House, Thistle Farms has helped and actually set free and got on the right path through the years?

Andrew: Restored. That's what I--

Mark: Do you know?

Becca: So we have about 200 women who have been a part, lived for the two years and graduated from the community. 85% of the women who come in graduate, but now what we've been doing, because our waiting list is so long, because the need is so long, and partly because we've gotten a lot of national stories, we get referrals from all over the country. So we've put a lot of our effort into starting new homes around the whole-- We have two houses in Texas.

Mark: Really, where?

Becca: We have 50 sister communities around the country. The latest was in Seattle. We just opened one in Omaha. It's in Kerrville, Texas, and Austin, Texas.

Mark: All right, yeah.

Becca: Those are the two places in Texas.

Mark: I did not know that.

Andrew: So beginning a network, how do you find those? Are those people already active in--

Becca: Most are people seeking us out and saying, "Teach us how to do it. We wanna do this. We wanna have this model."

Mark: What are the requirements of someone to start a project like that?

Becca: Well, the idea is that you kind of become a part of this aligned network and we share core values and principles, and the basic one is that we all are gonna work together and really alongside each other in a cooperative, beautiful way to serve the women in long-term housing first model that is free, because women don't come off the streets with any money, and if you make 'em go to a halfway house, and you're charging $150 a week, guess how they--

Andrew: They're gonna have to find that $150, yes.

Becca: So you're saying like, "I want you to be clean, and I need $150."

Andrew: Right.

Mark: That's right.

Becca: And you don't have a job.

Andrew: I feel like we're in this culture, American culture, that is big on no handouts. I mean, we just say that all the time. "I don't wanna give a handout. I wanna give help.” And what I see you doing is this really healing, holistic, restorative process, but I love what you're saying there because you're saying, well, it's not just a handout to give someone the opportunity sometimes through finances to make a new life. Do you have to balance that, people going--

Becca: So my dad was killed by a drunk driver when I was five, and my mom was 35-years-old, and there was five kids. And we became poor overnight. He was a minister. Didn't have a clue about life insurance, retirement plan. Free became the most important thing in our life. It was the biggest sign of God's grace. We would have prayer time that our tires wouldn't go flat. And it's like, why are we prayin’ that our tires don't go flat? The problem is we have bald tires, and we couldn't afford new tires. And so it becomes a theological issue, like God, please, please, please don't let that tire go flat today. Just anything, and my husband got a record deal. When we first got married, he went on the road. He was with Sony Records and he was gone 250 nights, and he said, every night, I would get on the phone and I'd go, "How was the day? Blah, blah, blah. Did you get the free shampoo out of the room?” I'm like, "If you don't take that shampoo, you are leavin' money on the table." Free was the best! It was just the best, and it's like, I always knew, the most stressful thing was when somebody made me pay for somethin’. Free was God, and so I never even hesitated when I was like, no, we are doing this free. For the women that we are gonna serve, it's free for everything.

Andrew: Does that say somethin’ about us, though, as like, we've talked about this with different people on this show, but as we, as the members of the church, I think about you and your family in that situation, where your father's gone and the income has gone, and you praying that your tires aren't bald, and I'm thinking, if I was in your congregation, I hope I would see that your tires were bald.

Becca: Well, the elder in the church that same, right after my dad died, and this is how it works for kids, just so you know how it works in churches, the elder in the church began sexually abusing me for years. At the age of six, and it started in the fellowship hall of the church, so not only was the church not helping--

Andrew: Seeing the need.

Becca: It preys on the people who are probably the most vulnerable. Not all churches. I knew that wasn't the story of the whole church. I know that that's the story of abuse, when people think they have power over you.

Mark: Power.

Andrew: I’ve heard you talk about that before, how this, the same church that housed the predator of your abuse also helped you pilgrim into faith. Did that feel, I think a lot of people have had that experience with "their church” in that they've both experienced some sort of abuse, power struggle, oppression, and at the same time, it's where they first started having conversations with God. Was that hard for you to reconcile as you became older and--

Mark: Did getting raped help you find God? I think that's what he's asking.

Becca: You got some scone all over there.

Mark: I do. We all know I love the scone. Oh, help me, mama. No, but, yeah.

Becca: Yeah, no, I hear what you're sayin’, but I think what I want is, I mean, I don't think as a kid, you go, "Well, this seems like this category and this category and I need to separate this and I understand this theologically and this practically.” I think it's like you’re just tryin' to find safety and home, and there were a lot of people that helped me do that, but I never, the biggest gift, the thing I run into with folks who have had those histories that I never had is like, I never thought it was God. I was never confused.

Andrew: You knew it was that man.

Becca: And I don't know why.

Mark: You never put God's face on that abuser.

Becca: Never.

Mark: Wow.

Becca: I never thought God let this happen or why did God do this. It was just like, this is messed up.

Mark: Did you innately know God loved you?

Becca: I think I always knew, and I think I had such a good mama who was so strong that it was like God is love, God loves you, that I didn't have all that junk that goes along with it, that it made it a spiritual thing. Like God was, that was good, faith was good, loving Jesus, that's good. The idea of a community that keeps silence and abuse possible, that's bad. So how do we keep us, how do we make communities that are safe and loving, that express how good God is?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, 'cause how do--

Becca: That's what I wanted my whole life.

Mark: And you feel like you’re creating that there at--

Andrew: Thistle Farms.

Becca: Do you think I am?

Mark: It looks that way, but I mean from the outside looking in--

Becca: Wow, we should've eaten there.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Mark: We could've.

Becca: Someday.

Sheila Simpkins, Thistle Farms Education & Outreach

Sheila: My name is Sheila Simpkins, and I am the Director of National Education and Outreach at Thistle Farms. So I was born into a dysfunctional family. I started getting molested about the age of six, and so I was conditioned at a really young age to please men. We moved to California, to Mountain View, California, when I was 14-years-old. My mom's fifth husband and I ended up running away. I met a guy, he sold me a dream, and I started selling my body to take care of me and him. I was not really considered a runaway. More of a throwaway because my mom never really reported me missing to the police. Even though I ran from everything, I still yearned for a relationship with my mom. To be quite honest, I love her. I started working in a strip bar there as a waitress, and I met a guy who started feeding me drugs, and then next thing you know, I owed him. And we went across the country selling my body, so that he could profit, along with about three or four other girls. It's called a stable. He brought me to Nashville in 1997, and we worked Murfreesboro Road. I met someone that was willing to play the game, and he served the pimp, and told the pimp that I chose up, and I got a severe beating, and that's where I got all these scars. I literally got a hole in my head from the abuse that I survived from him and I still had that addiction, and so I stayed out on Murfreesboro Road for six more years, jumping in and out of cars to support my drug habit, and during that six years, I did two years at CCA, and got arrested 89 times for prostitution. In 2004, they were doing, Thistle Farms Magdalene Residential, was doing an outreach, and for some reason, I walked over there. I just wanted to hear what they had to say, and I thought I was ready that day, so they put me in the car, they took me to where I was staying at, so I can get my clothes, and by George, I was gonna get my stuff together, but I took a hit whenever I got into the apartment and did not come back outside, and so that day is the day that the seed was planted about the program. I went to jail about two months later and got put into a drug court or recovery court, and they put me in a halfway house, and I went and sold my body so that I could pay the rent, and the cycle started all over again. And so I went to jail in September, actually, September 16th of 2004. I was in jail for about 60 days, and Magdalene became heavy, heavy, heavy on my mind. About 15 days later, I was back in court and being released to the Magdalene program, and that was November 30th of 2004. Went into the program, broken. Homeless. No life skills. I didn't go into the program because I was trying to get my life back 'cause I never really had a life. I needed someone to teach me how to live, but five months into being into the Magdalene program, I got diagnosed with breast cancer. I'll tell you something, that breast cancer was the greatest blessing of my life 'cause going through chemo, I lost all my hair. And I used to be kind of vain. I stopped caring about what people thought they'd seen on the outside because when I was looking at a mirror and I really got to literally see all the— I literally have a roadmap in my head from the abuse that I survived 'cause I didn't get to go to the hospital. So I stayed in the program, completed it, ended up getting married, which is the greatest gift of my life because now I have two beautiful children that think that they have the best mama in the whole wide world, and guess what? I think I am one of the best moms. My mom's now my best friend. She's someone that I talk to every day, and I can remember the day when I realized that I truly forgive her and it's when my son was born, and me and her were at the hospital. My husband chose to allow my mom to stay at the hospital and he went home, and I got to have that conversation with her. Just want to tell you that I love you and I forgive you, and that's what love has given me, the ability to be able to forgive, to let go of that resentment, to take care, take that load off of my shoulders that I've been carrying for so, so many years. Love for me is being a good wife, being a good mother, being a good daughter, being a good employee, being a good friend, just giving back. Love means so much. Love is an action word to me.

Mark: Someone watching, what can they do? Do they need to do anything? Do they need to support Thistle Farms? Y'all need support?

Becca: You know what?

Mark: You have supporters? How does Thistle Farms support itself, 'cause you can't give money to these women if you have no money to give, so how do you get it?

Becca: Right. There were so many questions, I don't know where to start either.

Mark: I don't either.

Andrew: Oh, look, he's been taking after me.

Becca: No, so here's what I say is that I think the first thing people need, if you’re listening or you're watching and you wanna be a part of it, the very first thing is just love people without judgment. That's the best thing we can do. We wanna heal this world and make it better and kinder. Love people without judgment. And the second thing is you can support us. Go shop online. You do more than shop. It's like investing in women's freedom. That's what I see. Almost every manager is a woman who came through the program, who's now training new women. It's a growing, thriving, sustainable, scalable business, and people can really invest, and then I think really, if you guys and anybody else want to help us, the best thing is this. This is being social media advocates. You get to share your story. We get to engage a new community. You get to tell whatever part of your story and how you feel empowered and love heals, and we keep going and we can make differences. I mean, that's the beauty of--

Mark: Start where you are.

Becca: Start where you are and be grateful. That's what I think.

Mark: And love without an agenda, I heard someone say. Not love someone to turn them into your denomination or your religion, but love them just for the sake of loving them.

Andrew: Kind of goes against our evangelical, my evangelical, to evangelize has this certain tone with it.

Mark: Yeah, it's like you love 'em if you can win 'em.

Andrew: Instead of just how about be their neighbor?

Becca: Well, the thing I've learned is that, a couple things. One is that when you really look at the gospel, it's not about changin' the world to make it love you. It's really about lovin' the world. That means you have to change or I have to change so I can love it better. So the whole changing is if you, when you're reading the gospel, it's about us changing ourselves so we can love it better.

Mark: Can you love someone without agreeing with them? I mean, obviously, you can.

Becca: Absolutely.

Mark: But I just wanted to make that clear.

Becca: I'm doin' it right now.

Mark: I know, I know.

Andrew: That's what I was thinking.

Mark: I mean, I think a lot of time, people, they will love you, the way I was raised and seein' in our denomination, you got to be one of us to really be accepted by us. But we are all one human, we're all human beings, and yet we divide, and so--

Andrew: Just seem like it’s our nature to divide. It seems like it's almost intuitive to divide, and it is this challenge to unify, even though we know the benefits of being unified, and the benefits of being a sanctuary. How do we as the church, and when I say we as a church, I think of we as the members of the church, as individuals, not as the American church, not as the local congregation on the street, but you, and you, and me provide sanctuaries. I guess that starts with what you're saying, right? I'm answering my own question, and you answered it.

Mark: Your neighbor.

Andrew: Loving your neighbor is the best sanctuary to offer?

Becca: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Are there ways we collectively can become a sanctuary?

Mark: Yeah.

Becca: Well, you know what? I have a gift. One of the biggest gifts I have is I have a brother that's a Roman Catholic priest, who does not believe in women's ordination, and I'm a pastor right? And--

Mark: He agrees with Paul then. The apostle.

Becca: Yeah, I know Paul, I met him. You know Paul.

Mark: You've heard of him?

Becca: No, but--

Mark: Women are to remain silent in the church.

Becca: My brother agrees with the Catholic Church, which is women are not allowed ordination, and that's my little brother. And I've been ordained longer than he has. It is the biggest gift because we love each other and we break bread and we laugh and we can debate. I don't want to spend Thanksgiving with anybody else. So it's never been a problem for me to say I can really disagree even if you don't think I should be a pastor. I share sermons with him. We get sermon ideas together.

Mark: Oh, great. See, I love that.

Becca: It's crazy.

Andrew: That's community.

Mark: I used to get a, and I’m probably repeatin' myself, but I used to get a Christmas card from Jerry Falwell and Tony Campolo.

Andrew: I've never heard this one.

Becca: That's awesome.

Mark: Well, let me finish it before you say. And I would put them side-by-side on my refrigerator 'cause they were both friends of mine. And I would think, every Christmas, my gosh, I know these men. I know they both love Jesus, and they came to diabolically opposed political conclusions. They debated each other on CNN, and they were actually friendly to each other when they would see each other, but now in this climate, it seems like it's more polarizing than it was.

Becca: I think we have to get more creative. When it gets more polarizing, we have to get more creative because if it's just gonna be a debate, we can pick a topic and debate and it's like, what that does is I get really honed in my argument and I'm very clear about what's wrong with you. I know what he's gonna say. I know how he feels about this. He's gonna say this and so I'm gonna say this, and it's almost like I can do a whole argument with my husband. He does not need to be in the room.

Mark: That's so true. I’ve done that with people.

Becca: Right, and it's like, guess what? I won the argument. But if we get really creative, we can open people back up and open ourselves back up, so when we're involved in this work of justice, especially around folks who haven't had a fair shake, and we can tell the story again, which is why I think bath and body care products and lighting candles and making tea, it's like, oh my gosh, I'm engaged again. I'm participating and I never had to have the argument about the law or the politics of it.

Andrew: 'Cause when you look into the eyes of these women, do you sense, I mean do you see any difference? You feel different?

Becca: Do I see any difference in what?

Andrew: Yeah, like between you and them. Is there any difference?

Becca: No, there's not. I mean, the line between, in my mind, between most pastors and prostitutes is pretty thin.

Mark: That sounds like a lyric.

Becca: If there's a line.

Andrew: I always think one or two steps.

Mark: The line between pastors and prostitutes is pretty thin.

Becca: You can take it.

Andrew: His next record, Pastors and Prostitutes.

Becca: You can use it.

Mark: That's a great hook, pastors and prostitutes.

Becca: Like you would stay with that.

Andrew: He just takes and read--

Mark: I love how Jesus, Jesus didn't mind hangin'--

Becca: Wait a second.

Mark: Around prostitutes.

Becca: Pastors and prostitutes.

Mark: Pastors and prostitutes. I love that. Jesus, man, he hung around people we should, the way I was raised, you’re not supposed to be seen with, but he was always around them.

Becca: You wanna hear a funny story? When Russ Taff lived across the street from me, right? Russ and Tori, and there was a woman who relapsed, had gone back out to the streets, and I was like, oh my gosh, we have to go get her. She can't come back to the house because she's dirty, but we need to get her a hotel room, so she's safe. I mean, we had had a woman that was murdered. The first woman that ever relapsed was murdered when she hit the streets. I didn't have a credit card, so I picked up Russ and I'm like, "Russ, we got to check her into this hotel,” and we go down just over on Elston Place, and it's like the Hampton Inn or something, and I use his credit card. He and I are standing down there, checkin' into a hotel room with an active woman selling herself on the streets, and he was like, "Oh my God, this is bad.” I'm like, "Here's the thing, nobody cares, Russ.” I promise, if you're really doin' it for the right reason, nobody cares. If we weren't, people would really care. It would be news, and it'd be interesting, but if you're really helping people, it's like, eh. Isn't that sad? It would've been great publicity.

Andrew: That shoulda been--

Mark: Yeah, really.

Becca: I know.

Mark: That's a good, good story.

Andrew: Russ Taff checking in a prostitute in a hotel.

Becca: Nothin', with his credit card. It was a paper trail.

Mark: He couldn't even make the singin' news.

Becca: No, couldn't make the singin' news. Sad but true story.

Russ Taff singing “Sanctuary”

Russ: When the miracle first happened in my life, I had grown up in church where there was so much judgment and so much condemnation if you couldn't walk perfect. So I was very protective about who I let in, and Becca and Marcus moved in across the street. And we began to have dinners together and talk and hang out, and she said, "Come to my church.” And one Sunday morning, I got up and I went to her church down on the Vanderbilt campus, and I'd never been around the liturgy and book of common prayers and all of that, and it wasn't about a self-help sermon, it was about God and what we need to do to please him. And she walked and I walked, I mean for exercise, and she said, "Let's walk.” And as I began to open up a little bit, when you're cautious, how much you say because you don't know how people are gonna react. I began to talk to her, and nothing I said threw her. In fact, I asked her one time, I said, "Tell me about grace,” and she said, "Grace is the ground we walk on.” And she said, "Russ, you need community.” And I had a community with my 12-step group, but I needed a Christian community that I could grow in and feel safe. And so Sunday after Sunday, I would go. And I felt loved, I felt cared for. It was the first time for me that I experienced love and grace from a minister. I'm sure there were others that would have given it, but I was afraid to tell it until I found someone that could handle my whole story and continued to walk with me in grace and love and encouragement. And I began to see why community is so important and sanctuary is so important for our growth.

Lord, prepare me to be a sanctuary
Pure and holy
Tried and true
With thanksgiving
I'll be a living sanctuary for you

Lord, prepare me to be a sanctuary
Pure and holy
Tried and true
With thanksgiving
I'll be a living sanctuary, Lord
For you

Lord, prepare me to be a sanctuary
Pure and holy
Tried and true
And with thanksgiving
I'll be a living sanctuary for you
For you

Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message

Andrew: Hey everybody, Andrew Greer here. And I wanted to talk a little bit today about our Season Two title sponsor, Food for the Hungry. And really, more than title sponsor, I would call them our title partner. I have long been partnered with Food for the Hungry. I know Mark has personal experience as well, but my experience with Food for the Hungry goes back to 2012 when some of my close friends there asked my good friend Cindy Morgan and I to partner with them on a tour that we were doing at the time called the Hymns for Hunger Tour. And we were going around from city to city in the United States helping local hunger relief out, and we thought, what could we do from an international angle to help international hunger relief? What I quickly discovered is Food for the Hungry is more than providing just the basic need of food of relieving hunger but really providing a core need, and that is a spiritual need of relieving a spiritual hunger. And of course, that is through the pathway of food, as through the pathway of emotional help, mental help, education, helping people provide shelters, basic needs, provide the medicines that are helping save the lives of their children and their family members. All those basic needs is a gateway to providing the greater need of spiritual hunger through Jesus. That is what we are hungry for. So I quickly began to relate to their name, Food for the Hungry, in a totally different way. What I loved about Food for the Hungry as well is that they're a very small footprint. They're a smaller organization. They just have more ability to be a part of the community, to truly partner with the people in the community, not to take over, not to bring some kind of western world way or attitude or understanding of how to provide for basic needs because those don't necessarily relate in every other country or setting or community. It's a very personal experience trying to understand how to break the cycles of poverty in people's lives across the world. And so they work hand-in-hand with the resources that are there in the community. What was really interesting to me in Nicaragua is that there were these African killer bees that were just filling up the forest in Nicaragua, and they produced a honey that was a huge export. I believe, it was in London, it was in Western Europe somewhere, maybe just in England at large, that they really had a strong desire and market for this honey, but the Nicaraguan folks didn't even know that the bees that produced that honey were right there at their fingertips. So what did Food for the Hungry do? They provided them training in beekeeping and how to actually use the resources that were right there in their neighborhood to help their community develop and thrive so that the generational cycle of poverty could begin to be broken, not just in their immediate lives but in the lives of their children, which would also be the lives of their grandchildren and so on. And so really what you're doing when you partner with Dinner Conversations as we partner with Food for the Hungry through your gift, which can be given at fh.org/dinner, what you're doing is you're helping break the cycles of poverty, those generational chains, is what I think of, you’re beginning to help people be free. So what we're asking as part of our partnership with Food for the Hungry, during this Dinner Conversations Season Two, is just one-time gifts, but child sponsorship is a big part of their background, and I sponsor a couple children from Nicaragua through Food for the Hungry, Mark sponsors a couple children through Food for the Hungry. And what I remember asking some of the grandparents of sponsored children when I went to Nicaragua is I asked the grandparents, I said, "Why is it even important that someone like me from countries away, from miles away, would be involved in the lives of your children?” And I remember what one grandmother said, "By you partnering, by you being someone who we don't know, and you don't know me, I don't know you, but you being willing to partner with our children and with our family's lives, is that I've learned that God has no borders, no boundaries, and, in fact, is a wild frontier.” And that opened my mind and heart to the fact that, indeed, God is bigger than our languages, He's bigger than our cultural traditions, He's bigger than the color of our skin, He's bigger than the way that we relate to one another, which can often be different. We don't always understand how our neighbors relate to each other. It's not the same way I might relate to you or you to me, and so I learned about how that God, of course, we're created in His image, is being reflected throughout the many people, as we support people, as we partner with people who are not like us and who are in different situations than us. I feel like I began to chip away a little bit at the mystery of who God is and who He might be as I experience life through the lens of our neighbors across the world. And that's one of the many reasons, that's my personal experience with Food for the Hungry, and a big reason why I was so thrilled that we were able to partner with them for Season Two. Your gift, one-time gift, goes straight to helping relieve the Rohingyan refugee crisis in Bangladesh, which is people in a poverty of a whole different— It's different than what I saw in Nicaragua because it's a poverty that comes through displacement from a people group that has no home. And Food for the Hungry is working with them. They're a group of people who lived in Myanmar for years and then, because of some persecution and really some violent, hostile conditions in Myanmar, had to cross the border to Bangladesh, where they found a safe haven but no room. And with no room, comes a lack of food, a lack of shelter, a lack of education, a lack of all the things that we know are key ingredients to keeping communities out of poverty. And so Food for the Hungry is working specificly there right now to alleviate the immediate needs, which many are medical, and then to begin to find a long-term solution for these people for the Rohingyan refugees. Your one-time gift is directly impacting the relief of the refugee crisis there through Food for the Hungry. You can give today at fh.org/dinner and know that your gift is literally multiplied 22 times. If you were to give a $1,000 gift today, that would be $22,000 invested into Food for the Hungry's work with the Rohingyan refugees. I don't know many more places you could get that kind of return on your donation, so I think that's pretty amazing, I think it's pretty fantastic, and it just is a further testimony to how Food for the Hungry is really utilizing their resources efficiently to do the long work, which I believe the long work still is relieving spiritual hunger, but we do that by, we’ve seen that in Jesus' example and during His ministry, meeting immediate needs so that there's access to the solution to the eternal need, and that is Jesus Himself. It's hard to see Jesus sometimes when you're hungry. And it's hard to maybe believe He cares if you don't have a home. And so by us here, people with skin on, by helping provide those basic needs for other people, I think the veil, the spiritual veil over our eyes, the things that keep us from really seeing God in the every day, suddenly those are lifted, and we experience life through an entirely new lens. So you're not just helping-- You are helping people with their immediate needs, but your dollar is making an eternal impact in people's lives. So I think that's pretty cool, and I think it's pretty cool that through our little conversations we get to have with some of our friends, that we get to have with you, we're honored to have these opportunities to motivate the conversation in the lives of thousands of people across the world.

Mark: This tea is good.

Becca: Cheers.

Mark: Cheers.

Becca: Can you cheers with tea?

Andrew: I don't know.

Mark: What is it, thistle.com?

Andrew: Thistle Farms.

Mark: ThistleFarms.com.

Becca: No, I'm wrong.

Mark: What?

Becca: That's not what it's called. I've only done it for 21, you're right, it's org.

Andrew: It's thistlefarms.org. I looked it up last night, yeah.

Becca: Okay, here, cheers again.

Andrew: thistlefarms.org.

Mark: thistlefarms.org, not only can you order this delicious tea, you can order bath oils and candles, and you’re helping women that need help get off the streets and get settled and get a job, and oh, what a great, great thing to be a part of. And I tell you what, it's plant good seed. You hear all those people on TV, these TV preachers. They say plant your seed. They put their 800 number up there, but they don't ever talk about the soil. And when you plant your seed, you better make sure the soil is good. If you want to harvest, this is good soil. I believed in this soil for a long time. It's good.

Becca: Thank you, Mark. Thank you both. I love this.

Mark: Only 90 calories.

Becca: Uh-uh.

Mark: That's what (mumbles).

Andrew: That's what, per.

Becca: Per bite?

Andrew: Yeah, exactly.

Mark: Per bite.

Becca: Well, it's just one bite. You could eat the whole thing in one bite.

Becca: First of all, this is cold.

Mark: Oh no.

Becca: All for Jesus. Do you want me to consecrate it?

Mark: I know he walked up a hill, but please, can I have a warm scone?

Andrew: Train of thought.

Becca: Are y'all good friends?

Andrew: We know each other.

Mark: Yeah, we know each other. Oh, good friends.

Andrew: Thank you very much.

Becca: Are you just being mean, or are you good friends?

Mark: She'd been borne of the spirit of God. Let me come talk to them this way.

Mark: What a ministry that little Episcopal priest, Becca Stevens, has accomplished.

Andrew: She sure has, and if you wanna hear more about her ministry, you can read and check out her new book, Love Heals, through our Amazon affiliate link below in our episode description.

Mark: And if you wanna binge watch all of Season Two of Dinner Conversations, you can do that right now on Amazon Prime.

Andrew: Who wouldn't?

Mark: Yeah.

Andrew: Thanks for watching Dinner Conversations with--

Mark: Mark Lowry.

Andrew: And Andrew Greer.

Mark: Turning the light on--

Andrew: One question at a time.

Give generously here: fh.org/dinner.

Don’t Miss an Episode! Subscribe Today:

S02, E01: A Change of Mind featuring Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf

Watch Our Other Episodes:

S02, E03: The Humanity of Billy & Ruth Graham featuring Will Graham and Gigi Graham

S02, E04: Life After Divorce featuring Crystal Lewis

S02, E05: Place in this World featuring Michael W. Smith and Ginny Owens

S02, E06: God Is In The Details featuring Kathie Lee Gifford and Rabbi Jason Sobel

S02, E07: Winning Takes Work featuring Scott Hamilton and Paula Trujillo

5/9/19 5/9/19

The Color of Love featuring Seth & Nirva and Montell Jordan

Interracial relationships is the table topic on this Dinner Conversations episode. Musical artists Seth & Nirva, a bi-racial married duo, and R&B super-seller Montell Jordan, now a pastor at a multi-racial church in Atlanta, chime in on the true color of love.

Interracial relationships is the table topic on this Dinner Conversations episode. Musical artists Seth & Nirva, a bi-racial married duo, and R&B super-seller Montell Jordan, now a pastor at a multi-racial church in Atlanta, chime in on the true color of love. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.

Andrew: It's incredible. Visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

Mark: Today's guests are Seth & Nirva, who I'd never heard of before, and I'm so glad I met them. They're an interracial couple. He is white. She's African-American. And now, he got his start in gospel music.

Andrew: That's right.

Mark: In an African American band.

Andrew: Yeah, well, like with Kirk Franklin and Donnie McClurkin.

Mark: Right, and she being African American, got her start with some white people.

Andrew: Yeah, with TobyMac.

Mark: And that's how they met, and then they fell in love and they got a beautiful, beautiful story.

Andrew: Yeah, they sure do. A wonderful musical duo, a wonderful marriage and we're here to talk about it and discover new things, learn new things and understand new things.

Mark: And there's one seat left at the table and it's yours. Let's join the conversation.

Mark: How did you meet?

Nirva: You know.

Seth: There's a--

Nirva: No, no, I was sad because of the event.

Seth: Shopping for me--

Nirva: Go ahead, you tell.

Seth: Well, we have a discrepancy in the story, but I'll go ahead and give you the true story.

Andrew: Okay.

Seth: We actually met at a Billy Graham Crusade, backstage. Quick, hi, my name is, kind of thing. She doesn't remember meeting me there.

Nirva: I don't.

Seth: So I made a big impression. She always says she watched the whole show.

Nirva: I did, I promise.

Seth: Which makes it worse ‘cause I was the only white guy on stage, so if she was gonna remember it would seem like--

Mark: At the Billy Graham Crusade?

Nirva: Yeah, it was, Kirk Franklin.

Seth: With Kirk Franklin. I was with Kirk Franklin.

Mark: Oh, okay.

Seth: And so she watched our set and everything, nothing. We met again in Orlando.

Nirva: He's setting the tone.

Seth: Later on, like a year later. And that time we actually had a full on conversation. She just don't remember that time.

Mark: She doesn't remember that either?

Andrew: Wow, two times?

Seth: Two times.

Nirva: I remember the day, I remember the concert.

Mark: You don't remember meeting him?

Nirva: I don't.

Mark: Or the conversation?

Nirva: I don't, it's crazy.

Mark: When did he come into your peripheral?

Nirva: When a mutual friend hired us to do background, he was releasing his CD, and then I remembered our conversations. We had these really good, fun conversations, and I do remember meeting you that day.

Seth: Peripheral is the right word 'cause I was still very distant.

Andrew: Were you interested from the get go?

Seth: From the second, it was love at second sight. So the second time, when she doesn't remember me was when I was like, you know, I had a pep in my step walking to her. I saw her--

Nirva: Was that Orlando?

Seth: Do her thing with Toby and I was like, man, this girl is amazing. And then once we got to know each other a little bit and became friends, I was like, man, she is just… Yeah.

Andrew: But it was total friends at first, right?

Nirva: It was complete friendship.

Seth: Too much so.

Nirva: Good friendship.

Mark: What did you say? Too what?

Andrew: Too much so.

Seth: I always say she planted me firmly, cemented me in the friend zone.

Mark: Okay, how'd you jump out of that?

Seth: I don't know, man. I was like a zombie comin' out the ground 'cause there was no way I shoulda been resuscitated and made alive. But, I think, how did I come out of it?

Nirva: Through friendship.

Andrew: Wow. So you kept shutting him down.

Nirva: Well--

Seth: No, it was, don’t, don't, don't sugar coat it.

Nirva: It was such a good friendship that when he told me he liked me, I said, “No, the friendship's so awesome. I don't wanna tamper with, I don't wanna—”

Mark: Were you attracted to him?

Seth: No.

Nirva: I really adored the friendship. I really mean that. The friendship was just so awesome and so--

Mark: Is that still goin' on?

Nirva: It's still goin' on.

Mark: I mean, yeah, 'cause sometimes--

Nirva: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah.

Nirva: I mean, it's the foundation.

Andrew: Yeah!

Mark: Yeah, that’s a good foundation.

Nirva: So, it was great. So I didn't want that to--

Mark: Had you ever dated a white man before?

Nirva: That's a great question. You know, I had… Just once or twice.

Seth: Had some primers.

Mark: Had you dated an African American woman before?

Nirva: That's a good question.

Seth: I had not.

Mark: Was that a big thing for your family?

Seth: Oh yeah.

Mark: What happened?

Andrew: 'Cause you're from Florida--

Nirva: Yep.

Andrew: Pretty rural--

Seth: Yeah, in a rural part. You ever been in those lakes where you swim one place and it's hot, and then you swim five feet to the left and it's freezing cold?

Mark: Yeah.

Seth: That's how culture is in Florida. So I was in one of those pockets that was intensely Southern. And my family, great family, nothing bad, but I knew when I first called home and told them, I anticipated it would be an issue, so I really tried to work up the courage--

Andrew: Had you talked about y'all's relationship yet to that point, or not introduced them to the idea yet?

Seth: No, well I told my mom.

Andrew: Okay.

Seth: 'Cause my mom, she was always… I grew up in a Christian home, my parents love the Lord, and my mom was from New York and she always had a heart for inner city ministry, so we did Sunday school and all this kind of stuff. She really set me up for it. I played basketball, I loved gospel, black gospel music, and did ministry in the inner city and all that stuff, so I told her first. I gave her a few weeks, and I was like, "Hey, can you help me maybe break the news to dad and figure this out?” But eventually I just came out and I felt like this was worth me calling my dad and just talking to him about it. So I called him, and I don't know if I should share the exact conversation, but he was kind and cordial and he understood, I don’t think he was excited. He definitely wasn’t excited to share with other family members, many of which cried when he did share it with them.

Andrew: Wow.

Seth: And some were like, “Well, we'll never see you again, and this is it--

Mark: Really?

Seth: Yeah.

Andrew: I mean, how did that feel for… I'm sure y'all were communicating about this 'cause he's confiding in you this process, is he?

Nirva: Yeah. How did it make me feel? It wasn't exciting.

Andrew: Right.

Nirva: But at the same time, God was dealing with my heart too. Where am I in this situation? Don't reciprocate, walk in love, don't take on the burden or the pressure that he had this, so it was a challenge to me to stay pure and to stay--

Mark: Was your family okay with it?

Nirva: They were, but my dad was like, “Are you sure about this?” He was more protective and just made sure I knew what the future could possibly hold--

Andrew: Even for the both of y'all, maybe.

Nirva: For sure, for sure.

Mark: What has the future held?

Nirva: It's been a journey. It’s been a good one, not awful, not without challenges, not--

Mark: What's the biggest challenge of it?

Nirva: Oooh. In regards to interracial?

Mark: Yeah.

Nirva: You know, when we married, I don't think it was as intense as it is now. I feel like in the recent years, things have gotten a lot more on the radar. But we walk into the Walmart, and I notice looks or double takes, and you’re checking in at the restaurant or the hotel, so is this, you know, they don't assume that we're married, and I get that, because--

Mark: Who gives you the most judgmental looks, white people or black people?

Nirva: I don't know.

Andrew: That's interesting 'cause I wonder, yeah, are some people looking at you, and then some people are looking at--

Nirva: It's hard to tell and measure, how do you go about your week measuring that? So it's hard. It just depends.

Andrew: And do you?

Nirva: I don’t. I can't focus on that.

Andrew: No, you can't live your life measuring it.

Nirva: It takes me down a spiral.

Mark: You have children?

Nirva: No children.

Seth: We don't.

Andrew: But how does education come--

Mark: You're gonna have pretty babies. I'm telling ya, if we would mix all the races, it'd be some pretty babies.

Nirva: That's true, that's true. What was your question?

Andrew: So, the burden of education, do you feel that burden or is it like, we're not here to educate people. I mean, I think your union alone can be a generous education, an invitation.

Nirva: Yeah. I think being a Christian alone carries that education. And so now that this matter is an issue, a big issue, we hold the answers, so we do good to carry the answers where we go, if invited to. You know, the Word says be ready to give an answer for things, and so this is a question, how do we do life with these tensions of always sizing people up by the way we look and what culture we're in? And so, Jesus has things to say about that, so I think I like the burden of education in that regard.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. In a broader picture.

Nirva: Yes.

Andrew: I mean, if you think about it, there was some preparation it seems like, even from the time, so you grew up loving gospel music--

Nirva: That's it.

Mark: Southern gospel music!

Seth: Well, both, actually both, for some reason.

Mark: But he did love Southern--

Seth: I did, I did.

Mark: That is so unusual for people your age, isn't it?

Seth: It is. You know what’s weird though? I didn't like it until college. In two years in college, I went through that's all I listened to.

Mark: How?

Seth: I don't know. I grew up with my parents kinda watching… My grandparents always get together for family homecoming, and every Thanksgiving and Christmas, it was on the entire time, my Grandad's, “That's singin', boy.” He didn't like my stuff, and he was like, “Now that's singing!”

Andrew: That's singing right there! This man can sing.

Seth: But when I got to college, I don't know what it was, and those harmonies, and just the fun of it all, it just grabbed me, and so I really got into it for a while and yeah, still love it--

Andrew: And then you were, I mean, with Toby's camp, a little more diverse.

Mark: Have you enjoyed that?

Nirva: I have enjoyed it. It was a blast. I stepped down a few months ago, but I tell you what, being apart of his team and traveling the world in that sense, it's been something I never dreamed could have happened.

Mark: And at the same time, you were doing what?

Nirva: Gospel.

Andrew: Gospel.

Nirva: Isn't that crazy?

Mark: What kind, Southern?

Nirva: We switched places! It's like we switched musical culture!

Seth: No, but back to gospel, so I was hired out of college. I was a math major, and I was working on a demo with some friends. Now this is funny actually. I don't know what… We didn’t know anything. We were from the middle of nowhere, didn’t know anybody, so our first demo we made was “The King Is Coming” and “These Are They,” but we sang it R&B over the actual track.

Nirva: That's so fun.

Mark: I would love to hear that.

Seth: We were just singing, like, I don't even know what was, the courtroom, no debate. I just remember trying to, how do I do this Bill Gaither talking thing, but with a run in it?

Mark: That is interesting!

Seth: (singing) The table is set for the great preparation. You know?

Andrew: Oh yeah, okay.

Seth: So we were doing these parts, and I just loved it, man. But somehow my demo, I ended up making another demo after that, the guy passed to Kirk Franklin, and I kind of quit, dropped out of school in my last year, and my parents made me promise I'd finish at some point, which I did. But I dropped out and went on the road with him. And that was an immediate life change. I never thought I would be doing that, and I was a huge fan--

Mark: And a completely different culture, right?

Seth: Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Mark: 'Cause you went from your white world to a black--

Seth: I did. Now the only thing is I did, in the area I grew up in, it was, we did have whites and blacks. White, blacks, Spanish.

Mark: In your church?

Seth: Not in the church, but in my school.

Mark: Oh, okay.

Seth: So most of my friends were actually black. I played basketball--

Andrew: So you had gospel--

Seth: I was the only white dude on my basketball team at my school, so that wasn’t a shift for me in that sense--

Andrew: That probably didn't make you feel real successful in basketball.

Seth: But it was good, it was good, it was easy transition.

Andrew: I mean, did y'all ever feel like, getting into that professional life, so you’re in this CCM world again, even though Toby has these diverse angles, you're in this more gospel world, you ever feel fish kinda out of water, even though you love it and you know your, you feel like, it seems like both of you thrived in those professional circumstances. But there's still behind the scenes, and there's still audiences that, I mean, I don't know. Did you feel that way?

Nirva: You know, if I just looked at what I saw, I did. But when you look at, okay, this is the body, this is the Kingdom, we are doing ministry and when you go from that place, it wasn't so out of place. But then there were times I'm like, would try to count the number of African Americans in the crowd, it was just very few, and that's like, in that regard, it was like, well, God knows what He's doing, He knows His timing, and so--

Mark: I wonder why that… Why do you think that is? Do you think African Americans as a whole know who Toby Keith is? Do they like his music?

Andrew: They definitely probably know who Toby Keith is--

Mark: What's his name? TobyMac, I mean TobyMac. Okay.

Nirva: This is awesome. I love it!

Mark: I mean, do they know who he is, and do they like his music?

Nirva: I think they do. I think his audience has grown, and when we started out, when I met him he had just completed his first solo album, so he was just starting out, just getting popular, but over the years, he’s definitely gotten more popular. He and Kirk Franklin did a tour together, and so those two worlds colliding I think brought more diversity, even more so, to our crowds--

Mark: What a great idea.

Seth: The interesting thing was Kirk and Toby always had a--

Nirva: Heart for that.

Seth: A specific heart for that. That's why I got hired with Kirk, honestly, last minute they were looking for a token white guy, and I was like, I'll play that role!

Andrew: Yes! I'd be like, me, me, me!

Seth: And then you know, with Toby, he was always trying to diversify his band, and that's why they--

Mark: And you know, Bill Gaither tried that, has tried that too, through Larnelle Harris, Todd--

Andrew: In some of the first waves--

Mark: He is so… It’s so important to him to try to mix it up, you know? The Word, the body of Christ is.

Andrew: Yeah, is that not… Is diversity not a picture of God himself?

Seth: Yeah, man.

Nirva: Oooh, that's good.

Andrew: I mean, do you sense that? Because it's not necessarily what we're raised with, I saw a lot of pictures of Jesus that were blue eyed, chestnut hair, that’s not very Middle Eastern. You know, it's definitely not. So we definitely start to picture what our surroundings are, we project that on God, and I've tried to, over the years, deconstruct that to be like, wait, hang on a second.

Nirva: Yeah.

Andrew: You know?

Nirva: Yeah, I think it's, I think God can handle that. When you go to Brazil or other countries, you see Jesus kind of portrayed from their cultural perspective, and I think that's Christ wanting to meet us where we are.

Mark: Absolutely.

Nirva: He can be in the African American culture, He can be in Portuguese culture, He can be in all, He can handle all of that. And I think the real heart for us, and the aim for me especially, is to get to know His character, His person. And it's much, much more than an ethnicity, in my opinion, He's the son of God, He's my redeemer, but He is Jewish, you know what I mean?

Andrew: Sure.

Nirva: He's that too, and He celebrates culture.

Mark: And one day, we'll be just like Him.

Nirva: You don't wanna leave it out--

Mark: 33 and Jewish.

Nirva: But you don't wanna be stuck there, you know?

Andrew: Yeah, I mean.

Nirva: But that's a good point. A very good point to bring up.

Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization, serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years. And right now, Food for the Hungry is helping hundreds of thousands of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh.

Andrew: Nearly one million refugees fled from their home in Myanmar to escape violent persecution. Refugees like Nihab, who crossed the border with her husband and six children. While safe from violence, refugee camp conditions are horrific, and Nihab’s children are always at risk of diseases, many of them deadly.

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Andrew: It's an incredible opportunity we have, and I think of Jesus' own words in Matthew 25, when He says, "What you have done to the least of these, you have done unto me.” So give today at fh.org/dinner.

Mark: And don't forget, not only will your gift be matched 22 times, but for every dollar you donate, we will enter you into a drawing for our Season Two Grand Prize Giveaway, and--

Andrew: What is the giveaway?

Mark: It's dinner with me and Andrew in Houston, Texas, at my favorite restaurant.

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Mark: Oh yes! I'm gonna write your favorite line, whatever it is, from “Mary, Did You Know,” and you'll get that one, like when she kissed her little baby, she kissed the face of God, that’s probably my favorite, and then I'll autograph that and send that to you and you can keep that, and then when I'm dead, it'll be worth $2 or $3.

Andrew: So remember to give now, give generously at fh.org/dinner. Every dollar is an entry into our Season Two Grand Prize Giveaway.

Montell Jordan

Andrew: You know, growing up, Montell Jordan, for me growing up, Montell Jordan's an R&B, platinum selling, “This Is How We Do It.” And now, 20 years later, I mean, I'm interested in what happened, what transpired that took you from “This Is How We Do It” to really getting it done spiritually as a worship pastor, and just pastoral in nature, here at Victory World Church in Atlanta.

Montell: Well, brought up in church, a church kid, raised sitting on a piano from the time, I was one of those kids that were, any time the church doors would open, I was there. Was put on a piano and started doing that, by the time I was 10, 11-years-old, up until my mid 20s, early 20s I should say. And from that standpoint, I grew up in church, and I was in church, but church wasn't always in me. So I knew all the technical things to do in church, I knew how to follow my pastor, I knew how to play music by ear, I knew how to— I knew how to follow it and do things like that, but as far as getting near God or the whole Holy Spirit thing, we were Baptist, so that was kinda taboo. So you know, just navigating those things. So I was always around church and in church, but church wasn't fully in me until later on in life, and so that was my training ground. I didn't get my upbringing in bible college or any of those things. It came through the music business later on in life. I gotta say this. We’re having Dinner Conversations here--

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Montell: I watch the show, and you normally have dinner at Dinner Conversations.

Andrew: That's true, that's true.

Montell: And I don't know if this is a black thing, or you know, so I brought my own. I brought my own dinner.

Andrew: Are we gonna break bread together? Are you gonna share that?

Montell: Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Mark, but I brought my own dinner, and we'll have to do this again, and we'll actually sit down. I'm joking, right.

Andrew: Now I will tell you, not everyone has dinner right… I don't even know how to respond, you know, when you say, “Is it a black thing?” I got nothing yet, 2019, I don't know if I can say anything!

Montell: No, it's all good, it's good, it's good.

Andrew: I love it. I am thrilled you're here, and we've known each other a few years now--

Montell: Of course.

Andrew: Off and on, and here at Victory World specifically, I've noticed a lot in the language of the website and even in… I think I wrote it down, I did. What you said in your bio on the website, that one of your favorite parts of the job is leading people of all cultures and nationalities into a deeper and more intimate place of worship with Jesus. And that language is all over the website, too--

Montell: Sure.

Andrew: You have over apparently a hundred nationalities worshiping across your campuses on any given weekend. Why is that important, not just to your congregation here in Atlanta that you're a part of, but why's it important to you?

Montell: It's important to me because I value Kingdom culture over earthly culture. Meaning over being African American, which I love. I value Kingdom culture over that. And a lot of people can’t fully understand that, that Jesus would mean more to me than that.

Andrew: Than your heritage--

Montell: Than heritage. And I love culture, I love heritage, I love our food, I love dress codes, I love lingo, I love all the different things that make me uniquely me. But more than that, I love the fact that you and I can sit down to a table, or not a table but you know what I mean--

Andrew: We'll get past that.

Montell: We can sit down and have— We can sit down, and we can have conversations, real conversations, about who we are, who we are in Christ, the things that we have the ails of society, that we have negative things that happen that impact this, but that we can have conversation about it, and the world is very divided in a lot of different areas. If you look at everything from music, there's R&B music, or there's pop music. What does that mean? You know, or there's CCM, contemporary Christian music, and there's gospel music. What does that mean? You know, there's all these different types of… There's the black church and the evangelical church. What does that mean? There's these, especially in America, there's these dividing lines that color has played a huge part in the fabric of who we are, and so somehow my musical journey has allowed me not just to be a part of the community that birthed me but also to cross over into a community that accepted me, and then a world community to where I can go to Japan or Germany or any place else, and those people embrace because of the music that speaks a universal language. So, that simply means this. We have 140 nations all represented here at Victory World Church, and my training ground, like I said, wasn't in bible college, it was in the music business, and so now when I stand before 140 different nationalities of people to lead worship, I understand, first of all, nobody's gonna be happy with worship because everybody wants their own style of music. But ultimately, it's my job to take what I learn from Japan and from Germany and from Nigeria and place all of those things, to focus all of those cultures and those nationalities towards Jesus, to be able to say I know what our preferences are, and what your human culture is, but if we can put that down for a more Jesus response to who He is to us, we can enter into a place of worship, and that's one of the things I get to do here, week in and week out at Victory.

Andrew: Don't you think all nationalities are pointing to Jesus? In the sense of--

Montell: Yes.

Andrew: Isn't that a spiritual thing?

Montell: I do think all nationalities, many, I would say most, are in some way, if you are in some type of church, or some type of religious context, spirituality, you're pointing towards Christ. I think the challenge is, I think it's interesting when you have to be around all white people to get to Christ.

Andrew: Okay.

Montell: Or I'm more comfortable being around all black people coming to Christ, or all Korean people coming to Christ.

Andrew: Sure, whatever it is.

Montell: All whatever people, going to Christ. So I'm trying to figure out if Christ says I'm coming back for church, for a bride, without spot or blemish, that to me doesn't say I'm coming back for the evangelical church. I'm coming back for the black church, I'm coming back for the Korean church, I'm coming back for the Roman Episcopalian church, I'm coming back for the Catholic. I think He says I’m coming back for my bride, and I think that bride is consisting of a whole lot of different people and nationalities that Jesus died for. And so with that being said, I just wanna do my part, and I understand each church has a great diversity and a great historical value--

Andrew: Tradition.

Montell: Tradition, and I understand it 'cause tradition is important. I think what we are to our individual churches is extremely valuable. I think what we are for God's church, and I say that specifically, who we are for our church, is something that's very diverse. Who we are for God's church, I think is very, very inclusive because He’s coming back for His church. He’s not coming back for an individual piece of the church. He's coming back for His body. And so at some point, I love what I get to do at such and such baptist church, because there’s a tradition that's rich there for that church. Now, for the church, how do we take what's unique and diverse about that and then bring that into the entire body, so that the entire body can be expressed in that diversity as opposed to try and keeping it separate.

Andrew: Yeah, it seems like that need to define, that need to divide with definitions, is more reflective of culture.

Montell: Sure.

Andrew: Like a humanity, human culture, society, whatever, then it is of God.

Montell: I believe so. And I think diversity and division are not the same thing. And so diversity is an inclusive thing that, you know, if we have a potluck, and I say, “Hey Andrew, when you come to the house, bring something that's unique to you," and “John…” Everybody that comes, you know? Somebody may bring Swedish meatballs, somebody may bring macaroni and cheese. All the different foods and cultures or whatever, they come together to create this entire big thing where everybody can get sick, just based on— But the cool thing is you're getting an experience of everything, and maybe it's just me, I've traveled the world enough to be able to know there's such a value in other cultures and those other things, that I feel stifled, I feel, when I'm just tucked into one place--

Andrew: Absolutely.

Montell: I just believe God is bigger than that. And I value all of those religions, I value all of those different traditional pieces. I'm trying to figure out how can what you have there traditionally be added to the overall body of Christ, as opposed to just being, and let me just say this real quickly, you may have to edit this out, I don't know, but from the stand point of when it comes to just America in particular, because of our background, because of slavery, and because of segregation and Jim Crow, a lot of things have led to us not being able to be together as a church, and when we go to the movie theaters, it's not like really black theaters and white theaters--

Andrew: Right, yeah, yeah.

Montell: Everybody goes. But based on maybe what neighborhoods a theater might be in, then you can have maybe more of a particular demographic than another, but ultimately, on our jobs, in movie theaters and restaurants, all these other places, we go and we're all together. But when we come to church, that's the one place where we kind of figure out, I'm more comfortable with this group of people or that group of people. When we're getting closest to God is when we become less close with each other.

Andrew: Well, it's interesting to me, I think, I mean you have a very generous heart. And we've talked some about this before, but you do in the sense of, it sounds like you're always zooming out to that bigger picture, which I love. I think culturally if we could even zoom out in the church for sure, a bigger picture, that’s Kingdom things, right. Then we would probably be more generous with one another than things we don't understand.

Mark: And getting to know each other.

Andrew: For sure.

Mark: I go to a multi-cultural church. It didn't start out that way, but God showed up and everybody started comin’. And it is so cool to be a minority. I mean, it's the only place I'm ever minority.

Nirva: I hear you.

Mark: You know, when I go into my church, and we're all worshiping together.

Nirva: Yeah.

Mark: So I think it's once you get to know people, it's hard, like I've said before, I'm repeating myself again, it's hard to hate it when it has a face. When you get to know them, it's hard no matter who it is, black, white, gay, straight, whatever. When you get to know the person, it makes you not so… It’s easy to hate them when they're away, far away--

Andrew: They're distant.

Nirva: There's fear. There's fear there, too, in the unknown and not being comfortable around what you’re not used to being around, and so when you get to know a person. Love according to knowledge, the word says, when you know a person and interact with them, it breaks down the walls and it takes away the fear. That's what Christ does.

Seth: Back to your education question, we didn't like go into marriage thinking oh man, we're gonna do this--

Nirva: Oh, no!

Seth: I just thought she was awesome!

Nirva: That was the furthest thing from my mind. I was just marrying my soulmate, that's all.

Seth: And so, you know, we didn't go into it like that, and it's funny how God just takes you on a journey 'cause we actually were traveling separate for the first four or five years. We didn’t even think to sing together, honestly.

Andrew: Hmm.

Seth: But we, when we went through that stuff with my family and some of my extended family that were in the mix, God actually used that process to bring reconciliation. These are people that have been in church all their lives.

Mark: Right.

Andrew: Sure.

Seth: Which is surprising when you think about, man, how could y'all miss that aspect of the gospel, that we're all the new man in Christ. No Jew, no Gentile.

Mark: How have they evolved?

Seth: Well, that was the crazy thing. So they had never, some of these folks, I won't mention their names 'cause they might watch this later. Love 'em to death, and we’ve had a close relationship, but they would never come to a Kirk concert, or Donnie. I would sing with Donnie--

Mark: You said they wouldn’t come, but now they would.

Andrew: How do you sing with Donnie McClurkin?

Seth: Yeah, I sang with Donnie McClurkin for about seven years, and for some reason, one of these family members all of a sudden came out, and at Donnie's concerts, Kirk might have a few more white folks, but at Donnie, there's hardly any. There’s a few here and there. But they decided to come to this concert, and the way they tell it, God gave them an actual vision during the concert. And this is a stubborn, stubborn person, nothing less than that would have shifted them. But they say God opened their eyes and said, “Look at these people in this room, and how dare you call unclean what I call clean?” And this person wept and went and repented to her the next week.

Nirva: It's true.

Seth: They're kind of like the patriarch of the family, so everybody kind of came through that. And you know, for her, she had to accept that 'cause that can be hard to even--

Nirva: Yeah.

Andrew: Process, yeah.

Seth: But she did, and now they of course love her way more than they love me. But it was almost like God gave us a glimpse into what He wanted to do in our life later, and now, so we've taken the song that we sing, “Brother,” and God has used that. We also, we thought that would just be a side song on the album, but He’s kinda used that as a center piece of what He's used us for in ministry all around the world, and we've gotten to be apart of peoples stories of reconciliation. From cameramen that are taping it, coming up to us afterwards weeping ‘cause they had stuff in their hearts against people because of some external thing.

Nirva: Yeah.

Mark: Wow.

Andrew: I mean, think about it, no one wants to be a poster child for anything, necessarily.

Seth: Right, right.

Andrew: But you are a picture of something that is not always readily available in our churches, in our culture, of us meeting together, coming together and being as one. You're literally taking that. I mean, I know that wasn't the objective, you love each other, you wanna be married, blah, blah, blah.

Mark: And it's really nobody else's business. It's your marriage. It's not my marriage.

Seth: Right.

Mark: You know, if I don't want to have a mixed marriage, then don't have a mixed marriage! You know what I mean, it's not anybody else's business, too.

Andrew: It's not, but there are people on the peripheral, right.

Mark: Right.

Seth: Yeah.

Mark: And judging.

Andrew: And that story of your family member, that's phenomenal.

Nirva: It's wonderful.

Seth: Yeah, man.

Andrew: You think about the reconciliation in their own heart, you think about the ways that God, the spirit of God has now opened to move ‘cause we're closing off channels, and things like racism and things like prejudices of all sorts, aren't we just closing off channels in our hearts for the spirit of God--

Seth: Right, it was a gift to him from God, I think, to free him from that bondage that he had carried all his life.

Mark: And I bet he would say that, too.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, I think he would.

Mark: And to be free. Once you've tasted freedom from all that mess.

Nirva: Come on now.

Mark: You ain't going back!

Nirva: That's it. That's it.

Seth: You're right, and what Nirva said was crazy too. We didn't know it would become a hot button in culture and just, man, explode in these last few years. And even people our age now--

Mark: So your whole family's in now? I mean, all of them?

Seth: Whole family's in. But now we got friends that, now they struggling with it in a new way, because of the new battles that are going on politically and the way it's being postured in the media--

Andrew: Yeah, we're all having to face it, and so is even, I don't feel like I grew up with a lot of prejudice or certain racism, but yeah, but I'm now having to, it's impacting me without even asking for it or inviting it in or saying--

Mark: So you think it's getting worse?

Seth: I think it's being highlighted.

Nirva: If you're on social media, it looks that way.

Mark: Really.

Nirva: I mean, you know, I went to a historically black college, a university called Fisk University, and I've got some buddies that are on that campus. It’s just a beautiful, rich campus, and you learn a lot of history. You've got some people that just champion that and just really ride that banner. And any awesome good thing, taken too far, fanaticism, I think you have to be careful riding that wave because the enemy comes in and tries to make it a, I don't know, something difficult rather than something beautiful if you're not too careful. But I follow some folks that are dear friends of mine, who would say that it is the number one problem in our world right now. It's just the race thing, black and white, the democrats, republicans, everything. So I don't know, I think--

Mark: It is divisive right now.

Nirva: It's very, very intense.

Seth: And if you think about, sorry babe, your relationship that you have with somebody, if all you ever highlight is the struggle area--

Andrew: Right.

Nirva: Yes, that's where you, the tunnel.

Seth: It's gonna make it feel worse, even if it wasn’t really worse, and then it is gonna get really worse, and I think there's some of that going on. It's like constantly, well you'll never understand 'cause this is where you're from, and this is, you know it's this accusative, finger-pointing thing, and that's where we’re trying to enter in to those discussions and not act like they're not important 'cause some of those issues are important and they’re worth thinking about, do we stand, do we kneel.

Andrew: Sure, sure.

Seth: All those things are important, but to get a bigger perspective and say what are the main things and how can we find unity first, and like you said, that face to face first. 'Cause in that context, then we can have more calm discussions where we still respect people, but I think it's so easy right now on social media--

Mark: When I grew up, my grandfather was a Democrat, my grandmother was a Republican. Grandma drove them to the polls where they vetoed each others vote every year. When did we quit having civil discussions? It's not light, it's heat.

Nirva: We don't know how to disagree.

Andrew: And why is that, why don't we know how--

Mark: Why don't we? I mean, how do you evolve to this?

Seth: She read a book last year by a guy named Stephen Carter. He’s African American professor. You remember where he's from?

Nirva: Yale, I believe.

Seth: Yale, I think. He wrote a book called Civility. And he's actually a Christian, too. Just a brilliant guy, but he marks how we got to where we are--

Nirva: Yeah, he goes throughout history, and the story of civility.

Seth: It's really interesting.

Andrew: So what did he say? How did we lose it? What did he say?

Nirva: You know, some of the things he says is, he goes way back in history and says, when transportation first began and say with the train system being set up in our country, we all had to ride together in trains, and we knew what it would take for this ride to be calm and pleasant, and then highways came around and we were in our own cars doing our own thing, and we gotta get to where we're going or we're not so cognizant of other people trying to get to where they're going, and so, just the focus of your own plight--

Andrew: Zeroing in on ourselves.

Nirva: Yeah, on ourselves. That's one of the answers he gives.

Seth: Yeah, one of the answers. Basically, he's saying just the pragmatic style of life has lended itself to us being more focused on ourselves and finding it hard to really think about others, and I think the other part, he kinda traces down the thought level, the loss of morality in our culture in general and how civility really is grounded in morality in general. And when you lose morality as an objective thing that needs to be lived by, and now it's just subjective and you choose what you think, you choose what you think. Well, there's no common bond of any kind, and civility would be one of those common bonds that we've lost.

Seth & Nirva singing “Brother” with Andrew Greer

When I look into the face of my enemy
I see my brother
I see my brother
When I look into the face of my enemy
I see my brother
I see my brother

Forgiveness is the garment of our courage
It's the power to make the peace we long to know
Open up our eyes
To see the wounds that bind
All of humankind
May our shuttered hearts
Greet the dawn of life with charity and love

When I look into the face of my enemy
I see my brother
I see my brother

Who's my enemy really?
Is it even you?
Or is it the sin in us that's got our defenses up?
This fight to be right, oh man, it's killing us
Yeah, it's killing us
Oh, it's killing us

This back and forth, it leads us to divide
Division leads to pain
Pain leads to our demise
We must decide is this working
All this fussin' ain’t worth it
Animosity it don't serve us
Let's get it all on the surface, y'all
I never even walked a day in your shoes
You've never been on my floor
You ain't seen it from my view
I must admit, man
Got a lot more to uncover

So I’m letting go of myself
And I’m holding on to brother
I'm letting go of myself
And holding on to brother
Oh, let go of self
And I’m holding on to brothers
Right now
Right now

When I look into the face of my enemy
I see my brother
I see my brother
Help me to see them like you do
Help me to see them like you do
Help me to see them like you do
I wanna see a brother
Help me to love him like you do
Help me to love him like you do
Help me to love them like you do
Wanna see a brother
Help me forgive them like you do
Help me forgive them like you do
Help me forgive them like you do
I wanna see a brother
Help me forgive them like you do
Help me forgive them like you do
Help me forgive them like you do
I wanna see a brother

Andrew: Do you think that racism or prejudice of any sort is an obstacle to the spirit of God being able to move freely through and among us?

Montell: I think… I think the Holy Spirit has a desire to be able to reign free, but I think God is a gentleman. I think that He’s not gonna impose His will on anyone. And so from that standpoint, I think that, you know, the Bible says that there will come a day and time when people will have itching ears, and they'll just kind of wanna hear what they wanna hear, they will say that good is evil and evil is good. So from that standpoint, I think we're living in a day and time where you can hear truth, but people prefer their truth over God's truth. And there's a difference. And so from that standpoint, I do believe the Holy Spirit can be the power that the church can have, becomes hindered when we're not showing what Jesus showed, and we're living more pharasitically. I don’t know if that's a word--

Andrew: Sounds nice.

Montell: It did sound good though, pharasitically.

Andrew: Is that from the music industry or seminary?

Montell: That's seminary. No, no. No, but when we take on that stance, we look more like the people that are law keepers than the one that Jesus was trying to reach out to. The prostitute, the tax collector, the people that they say, why are you hanging with that person or that person. I think when we, when we live that way, we become this, this group that are so set in our agendas, that we miss God's agenda of what He's trying to do in the earth.

Andrew: Do you think, we highlight a lot the division, or we, I don't know who’s we, but we see a lot, whether it's through social media, through our news media, or just in our conversations, we talk a lot about the division because I think there's a really deep down innate sense that that's not the way we're designed to live. But there is also a lot of unity. There are stories of unity that we don't highlight as much. Do you think, and I don't know if this is a real fair question, but I'm gonna ask anyway. Do you think that the division among humans, the divides, do you think that's getting worse?

Montell: I think division amongst humanity right now is getting more defined.

Andrew: Okay.

Montell: So as far as worse, I think that when you bring, when you shed a light on something and it becomes more defined, it's now being more exposed. So I think division has always been there, I just think it's more defined. I'll give you an example. I grew up most of my life in Los Angeles, California. Los Angeles is a melting pot of a bunch of different people and nationalities and X, Y, and Z, and if there is racism, and there is racism, it looks different in California than it does in the South. And when you're in the South, it looks different because it's more defined here. In Hollywood, or in different places in the music business, those different things, it's just masked differently, and then there are certain places that we don't cover it up. It is what it is, you are who you are, and it's like, oh, this is what this is here. And so it doesn't make it more in the South, it just means it's more pronounced or it's more defined. And so I don't know if we are getting more divisive. I do believe everything, lines are becoming clearer and becoming more precision drawn so that you can be able to identify, oh, I know where you stand based on what you're showing, as opposed to I don't know what this person stands for because they're not saying anything.

Andrew: Mmm. I wonder if curiosity, because so many people don't either want to receive some kind of blame or they wanna shift blame, and really, like you said, it's not always about who to blame, it's just about coming together. I wonder if curiosity, if I could just be curious about your experience and you could be curious about mine, then the discussion could open up. Maybe if we could just be curious, I think about people who haven't had a lot of experience, maybe they haven’t traveled internationally, so they haven't seen cultures outside of our Western world and thinking kind of way, or maybe they haven't traveled… I know people who haven’t traveled out of their home state.

Montell: Never been out of their, yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, out of their circumference of an hour, you know?

Montell: Very narrow scope of what the world looks like.

Andrew: And naturally, right? You haven't experienced what you haven't experienced. So as you begin to experience it, and now more people are able to experience it through the avenues of news media, or even sometimes Hollywood depicting it accurately, et cetera. If I could ask questions about what I don't know.

Montell: Mmhmm.

Andrew: Then you can help me, and if you ask questions about what you don't know, or ask questions, or even, I wonder, I want to know if I've said something, this is anybody that hurts you, that is harmful to you, that is a step backwards instead of a step forwards, and the fact is, I don't always know, but I want to know. So we have to remain curious about each other, I guess. Does that resinate with you?

Montell: Absolutely. Curiosity, I think it comes through a safety though.

Andrew: Okay.

Montell: In other words, I think there has to be a safety that only comes through relationship that says I trust you, you trust me, you know that I don't wanna hurt you, I know you don’t wanna hurt me, there's some things that I wanna know, and can we explore those things--

Andrew: Together.

Montell: Together. And in that, can we explore them and not get offended with each other? We do that here at this church regularly. My pastor calls himself a equal opportunity offender. Because when you got so many different nationalities, he's gonna say something and it's gonna tick somebody off. But in order for us to all exist, we have to be able to see, well, I know there was not maliciousness in that. There's some truth in there, there's some comedy in there, and then there's some tough parts in there, and all of that makes it a reality. I think when trust is there, you can have those tough conversations. I’ve had people who I trust, come and say, the N word, “Why are you, why do you guys get so offended when people say the N word or whatever?” And then you know, you have to be able to answer, and say, well, here's what it means, here's why it was offensive, and here's why X, Y, and Z, and here's why we turned it into a term of endearment, but it still sucks as a word and it's not really a term of endearment, we tried to take something bad and make it good, but it's not good, it's still derogatory. And so there's so many complexities even amongst different races, but if we don't sit and have the conversation, to be able to have a trusting place to be curious about it, you won't understand and you will just make assumptions. Well, he's super sensitive about that area.

Andrew: Right.

Montell: No, not super sensitive about that area. I had a grandfather watch police pick him up and kick him around on the street and call him this, that, or the other, so now, that has formed my lens of X, Y, and Z, and you may not understand that unless we have that conversation.

Andrew: And part of building trust is also me being okay, you being okay, when we say not yet.

Montell: Yeah.

Andrew: I think that proves curiosity, not some kind of, that we're not science experiments to each other et cetera, but we're really curious about one another and when I can say respect and say, okay, and I might even explain here's why, this is like changing my paradigm.

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Mark: Yeah! So when we have our next conversation, you can have coffee with us. Let's get back to the conversation.

Andrew: I always think of solution, you know, in solutions. Do you know Doctor Chris Williamson, Pastor Chris Williamson, here in town?

Nirva: Yeah, here in town, yes.

Andrew: So we've talked with him a couple of times.

Mark: We love him.

Andrew: And one of the most beautiful things I thought he said was, he said, “We always ask, on any side, what can we do when there's a problem?” And he said, “And what I want to encourage us to do is to see. Do you see?" So it's like the song “Brother.” It's like, have you walked a mile in my shoes? Or have you even just said, where are those shoes? Take them down that road a bit. And I think, I guess we have to sit, come let us reason--

Nirva: You have to want to see, you have to want to. And then begin to just practice it, get to know your neighbor on your left side of your house or the right side.

Seth: We have some friends--

Nirva: Just take a look and see, how do they live and how are they doing? And then you'll find they're just like you. They want significance, they want to prosper, they wanna have--

Andrew: Healthy children.

Nirva: We have the same struggles.

Mark: Absolutely.

Nirva: But it's easy to just say, oh, you know, I've got, I'm gonna let this fear take over, and I don't wanna take the time. And I think it just starts with a want to, a reminder to want to. 'Cause sometimes we don’t even think about it. It doesn't cross your mind.

Andrew: Sure. Because we're zeroed in.

Nirva: We're zeroed in.

Andrew: Have you ever thought, I don't wanna be idealistic, but I live in idealism. So if we each, I mean this is super idealistic, but if I live here in this home, if I just looked to the needs of my neighbors to my left and the right, and they looked to the needs of their neighbors, I can manage that, that’s manageable in any life. The whole entire world would be taken care of.

Seth: She honestly has that heart and has taught me a lot 'cause I'm an introvert, so I'm doing everything I can to not ever have to talk to anybody— But she literally has plans to meet with our neighbors and give 'em stuff, and we've been able to connect with them the last two years. We live in kind of an average, low income neighborhood. It’s great, but we have been able to meet with them and have even… One night we were able to have a prayer time with them. But you're right--

Nirva: It's wherever your sphere of influence is, just take the time to see people where you are.

Mark: The scriptures say Judea, Samaria, and the utmost part of the earth. You start at home. Start in Nashville, then Tennessee, then--

Nirva: That's it.

Mark: That's what my preacher always explained it.

Andrew: And then we don't get overwhelmed. I mean, I'm still afraid of my neighbors sometimes.

Nirva: I get it.

Andrew: Things I don't understand.

Nirva: You have to be wise with that, depending on where your neighborhood is. I'm just saying! Just saying, it's the truth.

Andrew: But that's such a small chunk, to be able to overcome fear, just let me start with two families, or two people, instead of the whole--

Seth: That's good.

Nirva: True.

Andrew: Whatever I don’t understand, instead of tackle the whole thing.

Nirva: It's true.

Mark: But you two travel and sing together now?

Nirva: Yep.

Seth: We do.

Mark: And you work in churches, or where?

Seth: We've been singing in all kinds of places really, churches. Occasionally, we get to go to schools. We even went to a public school in Massachusetts.

Mark: What do you think your underlying message is? If you were to put it into a mission statement of some sort, what is your goal?

Andrew: As Seth and Nirva.

Mark: When you stand up there on that stage for the night, what is the goal of the evening?

Nirva: Ooh, I don't know if I can put it in words, but just to take steps to develop a Christian world view about things.

Mark: So your songs, you’re leading towards that in your testimonies?

Nirva: The songs lead towards that. When we minister, we take the audience on a journey from where are we now, how do we get here, and then some of the answers, we try to, from a Christian perspective, take them on that journey. What is the world saying about us now, and how do arrive here? Is it true, is it not true? Let’s tackle those issues. That's one of the things.

Mark: So you cut deep.

Nirva: We go, we do.

Seth: We do, we do. And we're still honestly, I think we're still forming that. I think we're still in formation process, figuring out an exact bullseye, but I think when we go to churches, one of the things we wanna leave behind is, because when we see the, man if we could have that big of a blind spot with some of my family members that have been in church all their lives, what are we doing to miss that? How are we not listening, how are we not studying, how are we not walking with Christ? So I think when we go to churches, the challenge to, hey, let's engage in discipleship, not just trying to build numbers and stuff like that, but let’s, let's really learn what it’s like to be disciples in 2018. Can we really still trust that Jesus' words are true and relevant today, and I think we can. So we try to leave churches with that. If we go outside of the church, our idea, our goal with them is to get them, 'cause many people outside of the church will hear “Brother” and they'll be like, yes, they recognize there's something right about that, even if they're not Christian at all.

Andrew: Sure.

Nirva: Some don't.

Seth: There's something better about forgiving and loving than hating. Even the most hateful friends we have will be like, that's a really good song, I like that sentimentality.

Mark: Okay.

Seth: So for them--

Andrew: You gotta practice it.

Seth: Yeah, well, for us, for them we wanna say, okay, where do you think those ideas might come from? Love and equality and forgiveness, you know. They actually have to be grounded in a deeper world view. And that's what we get to take them to maybe consider that the Christian world view is not only true, like Siesto said, Christianity’s true not just because, like the sun, not just because I see it, but by it, I see everything else.

Mark: Yeah.

Seth: So Christianity, to them, I try to show them how it makes sense of what they intuitively know to be true.

Mark: Wow, that's great.

Seth: And so that's kinda the two funnels of our ministry right now.

Mark: And you say outside the church, what do you mean, bars, or where?

Seth: You know, wherever. Sometimes we could end up any place. I love, I have a heart for university students for sure, so our upcoming plan is to try to connect with some of those, and just go, maybe Campus Crusades for Christ, or inner Varsity, and just go right on campuses and do these songs and minister from that place.

Mark: Are you finding that millennials are falling away from the gospel or falling to it, or what--

Seth: Yeah.

Mark: I kinda sense that there’s a lot of them kinda saying to heck with it.

Seth: Yeah, I think the statistics would verify that, for sure, and there's a lot of, the stats kind of range, but I have seen anywhere from 40 to 60 that are leaving high school, leaving the faith--

Mark: How do we woo them back?

Seth: A lot of different reasons are there. How do we win them back?

Mark: How do we woo them back, woo them.

Seth: I think there's a lot of things, I think for one, for me, we did a young adult ministry for three and a half years recently in Tampa, and it was a very unchurched area, and we kind of planted it within a larger church, and it was kind of experimental, I was really trying to take these ideals I had learned, just doing my own study and seeking God and try to see, will this work in the church? And I said okay, we're gonna make, our aim in this setting for young adults is gonna be, we're gonna try to make disciples, we're gonna angle our services and everything we can do to train people to be able to go out, so it's not just us trying to do everything we can to get people to come here, but we wanna train people to be big Christians, in essence. And so I think the more we did that, we spent two years, for instance, teaching them just the basics of the Christian world view, so they would understand who they are, who God is, can we trust the Bible? And I think those things allowed many of them to go through college and weather the storms. I mean, there are up and downs, everybody's gonna have their process, but I think for us, one of the things, this isn't the whole answer, but one of the things, is really challenging people to grow in their understanding of the Christian faith from a Sunday school level. You know, we'll grow in every area, but we won't put time into developing our walk with Christ like that, and maturing in our understanding, and so I think that's one area, opting for that over entertainment.

Nirva: Yeah.

Seth: Not that entertainment’s bad, that's a good part of it. But the emphasis, you know what I mean, put the emphasis on that other thing. And I think creating warm communities where people can be open and honest--

Andrew: That's the entry point.

Seth: And have real friends that they can be safe to question, we try not to make people feel the pressure to confess things they really didn’t believe, and if they didn’t believe 'em, we wanna walk with 'em and help ‘em come to a stronger confidence in God.

Mark: That's beautiful.

Nirva: I feel like they’re walking away from it because they no longer believe it’s true. They’ve been told they can trust it, but can they know that it's true? And I think that's one of the things we try to encourage them too, you can test this, you can find answers, you can find evidence that Jesus rose from the dead, that God exists and things like that.

Seth: And experience 'em in your life.

Nirva: If you grew up in an environment where you're told to trust it, so you’re trusting it, but you've never had the means or the how to, or the why to trust it, and so I think that's one of the reasons that a lot of them are walking away.

Seth: It's like, it's the perfect storm in college 'cause you're out of your home for the first time and you have all these temptations. It’s hard for anybody. And then you have professors, who tend to not be in the Christian world view, if you don't go to Christian school, and it's just like the perfect storm to just--

Andrew: Sure, it's too easy, yeah.

Seth: Take you right off.

Andrew: Well, and if all we’ve been done is trained to sing “Trust and Obey,” but I was not allowed to search--

Seth: Yeah, man, yeah.

Andrew: It's in the seeking that we'll find, that's the promise of it, and you're talking about even how Jesus is depicted in so many different cultures as something relatable to their culture because I think, in the end, that's trustworthy. Jesus will find us--

Nirva: Yeah.

Andrew: If we just walk along the path, but if I'm just told, I actually hate that hymn, trust and obey.

Nirva: It's such a favorite!

Andrew: It's more, it's the melodic structure. I don't like the chorus. Trust and obey, for there's no… It sounds like marching orders.

Seth: That's hilarious.

Nirva: That's funny.

Andrew: Love with a hug…

Seth: He takes a bite!

Nirva: He takes a bite!

Seth: But yeah, I mean, we definitely, we don't have all the answers on that. We explore, we read about it a lot, we wanna understand it better.

Mark: Well, you're probably seeing a lot more millennials than I am.

Seth: Yeah.

Mark: You know, 'cause you’re at that age where they’re still gonna listen to you.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you'd be surprised, I will say this though. I think they're in such a phase now of, they've reaped the fruits of not having solid structure and walking away maybe from the faith, that they're actually, we would bring people in to our ministry that are in their 60s, 70s, 80s, 50s, whatever, and they would leech on to ‘em. And it was awesome to see--

Mark: Interesting. That’s good.

Seth: And so I also try to encourage people in churches that think that, well, they won't wanna listen to me. They actually might more than you think. And so I say get in the game, man, spend time with these people because they're so lost now, it's like they don't even know where to go to ask, how do I get back on track, but anybody that seems like they have life pulsating through them, they wanna connect with them.

Andrew: That's what happened here. I was looking for someone in their 60s, 70s, 80s--

Mark: Well, you found me!

Nirva: Oh, in the person!

Andrew: That's a wrap.

Mark: I always threaten to bring home a black girl. And just watch them shiver.

Seth: Threaten, that's great. If you say something like that again, imma do it.

Nirva: You better sing!

Andrew: Seth, Nirva, Andrew?

Nirva: We must do this again! You better sing, you know what I'm saying! Don't make me sing. You know what I'm saying?

Mark: Well, I hope you enjoyed that episode with Montell Jordan and Seth & Nirva.

Andrew: Yeah, you can check out all of their amazing music through our Amazon affiliate link in our episode description.

Mark: And if you wanna binge watch all of Season Two right now of Dinner Conversations, you can do that on Amazon Prime.

Andrew: Thanks for watching Dinner Conversations with--

Mark: Mark Lowry

Andrew: And Andrew Greer

Mark: Turning the light on--

Andrew: One question at a time.

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

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Don’t Miss an Episode! Subscribe Today:

S02, E01: A Change of Mind featuring Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf

Watch Our Other Episodes:

S02, E03: The Humanity of Billy & Ruth Graham featuring Will Graham and Gigi Graham

S02, E04: Life After Divorce featuring Crystal Lewis

S02, E05: Place in this World featuring Michael W. Smith and Ginny Owens

S02, E06: God Is In The Details featuring Kathie Lee Gifford and Rabbi Jason Sobel

S02, E07: Winning Takes Work featuring Scott Hamilton and Paula Trujillo

S02, E09: The Thin Line Between Priest and Prophet featuring Becca Stevens and Russ Taff

5/2/19 5/2/19

Diversity Living Together featuring Montell Jordan

Platinum selling R&B star–turned–Atlanta-based pastor Montell Jordan joins us for a thought provoking-packed conversation about the beauty and challenges of living together in a diverse country — especially within the church.

Platinum selling R&B star–turned–Atlanta-based pastor Montell Jordan joins us for a thought provoking-packed conversation about the beauty and challenges of living together in a diverse country — especially within the church. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations. Subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times!

Andrew: It's incredible. Visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

Mark: Today on Dinner Conversations we have a very interesting guest, who actually was just supposed to do a bumper in one of the other episodes.

Andrew: A breakaway, yeah.

Mark: A breakaway, yeah. And he was such a fascinating guest that we have decided to give him his own episode. His name is Montel Williams. Isn't it, or is it Jordan?

Andrew: It's actually Montell Jordan.

Mark: Oh, it's Jordan!

Andrew: Montel Williams is a famous talk show host.

Mark: Oh, that's right.

Andrew: Montell Jordan came to notoriety in the ‘90s. I grew up with This is how we do it. Which was a huge platinum-selling R&B single.

Mark: And he sang that?

Andrew: Oh yeah, you remember "This Is How We Do It"?

Mark: No. But it was a big song?

Andrew: Oh, it was multi-platinum. It was an international hit. They still play— This is how we do it, how we do it, do it. That’s Montell Jordan.

Mark: I do remember that.

Andrew: Yeah, and then he had a big R&B career.

Mark: Bill would bring Gloria on with that song.

Andrew: Shut up, that's not true.

Mark: No, I made that up.

Andrew: That is not true but would've been brilliant.

Mark: It would have been.

Andrew: Montell Jordan is brilliant, and we are thrilled to have him in the house.

Mark: He really is.

Andrew: He's a pastor now, one of the pastors at Victory World Church in Atlanta.

Mark: From this is how we do it to the pulpit. And we have one seat left at the table, and it's yours! Let's join the conversation.

Andrew: First thing is according to the internet in 2012 you died.

Montell: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: So I'm wondering if this is a hologram or an imposter.

Montell: No, I'm real. I got killed on Twitter.

Andrew: Okay, it was Twitter.

Montell: It was a great story behind that. I'll keep it brief. I took my son to a football field, gonna just catch some football, and I wanted to spend valuable time with him, so I turned my phone off and hopped out, left it in the car, went outside, played football for like 30, 40 minutes, came back, my phone was literally on fire, almost like burning up. My wife was callin' me, my mom was callin' me, my closest friends were callin' me tryin' to find out what was goin' on, and so rather than call anybody back, I was like, what is goin' on? And I kinda looked up social media, and it was just this thread of Montell Jordan dies in his mistress’ downtown Atlanta condo. So I'm like, they killed me, and they didn't even kill me at home. They killed me at something that doesn't even exist. So I called my wife, and I called everybody. But the cool thing about that was I learned who I was. It was almost like goin’ to your own funeral.

Andrew: Based on what people are saying?

Montell: Yeah, what do people think about me? Singer who does “This Is How We Do It" dies. "This Is How We Do It" singer dies. R&B singer that did “This Is How We Do It" dies. And I'm like, that's me? Guy that did "This Is How We Do It" dies? And so from there, I really started to focus on life after the ellipsis. And I think an ellipsis is that little dot, dot, dot. The guy that did "This Is How We Do It," dot, dot, dot, but went on to lead people to Christ and to do this and to do that. And so that's how I've kinda based my life since that time.

Andrew: I mean, tell me about that, because growing up, Montell Jordan, for me, growing up, Montell Jordan's an R&B, platinum selling, "This Is How We Do It.” I mean, it's exactly what you saw. And now, 20 years later, I mean, I'm interested in what happened, what transpired that took you from "This Is How We Do It” to really gettin' it done spiritually as a worship pastor, and just pastoral in nature here at Victory World Church in Atlanta.

Montell: Well, brought up in church. Church kid raised, sittin' on a piano from the time, I mean, I was one of those kids that anytime the church doors were open, I was there. Was put on a piano and started doin' that around the time I was 10, 11-years-old, up until my mid-20s, early 20s I should say. And from that standpoint, I grew up in church and I was in church, but church wasn't always in me. So I knew all the technical things to do in church. I knew how to follow my pastor, I knew how to play music by ear, I knew how to (hums), I knew how to follow and do things like that, but as far as getting near God or the whole Holy Spirit thing, we were Baptists and so that was kinda taboo.

Andrew: Yeah, right.

Montell: Just navigating those things. So I was always around church and in church, but church wasn't fully in me until later on in life, and so that was my training ground. I didn't get my upbringing in bible college or any of those things. It came through the music business later on in life. And I gotta say this, we’re having dinner conversations, and I've watched the show and you normally have dinner at Dinner Conversations.

Andrew: That's true, that's true. Do you feel jipped?

Montell: And I don't know if this is a black thing, so I brought my own. I brought my own dinner.

Andrew: Are we gonna break bread together?

Montell: Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Mark. But I brought my own dinner, and we'll have to do this again and we'll actually sit down to... I'm joking with you.

Andrew: Now I will tell you not everyone has dinner. I don't even know how to respond. When you said this is a black thing, I got nothing, 2019, I don’t know if I can say anything.

Montell: Oh no, good, no, no good, it's good, it's good.

Andrew: Although I am thrilled you're here.

Montell: Yeah, thank you.

Andrew: And we've known each other a few years now just off and on. And when we began talking, we've had several conversations with different people about, you could call it the issue of, or maybe just the conversation of race and the church. And we're talking about not just one church, we're talking about--

Montell: The Church.

Andrew: The universal Church, right. And here at Victory World specifically, I've noticed a lot in the language of the website and even in, I think I wrote it down, I did, what you said in your bio on the website that one of your favorite parts of the job is leading people of all cultures and nationalities into a deeper and more intimate place of worship with Jesus. And that language is all over the website too. You have over apparently 100 nationalities worshiping across your campuses on any given weekend. Why is that important, not just to your congregation here in Atlanta that you're a part of, but why is it important to you?

Montell: It's important to me because I value Kingdom culture over earthly culture, meaning over being African American, which I love. I value Kingdom culture over that, and a lot of people can’t fully understand that, that Jesus would mean more to me than that.

Andrew: Than your heritage.

Montell: Than heritage.

Andrew: As an American man.

Montell: And I love culture, I love heritage, I love our food, I love dress codes, I love lingo, I love all the different things that make me uniquely me, but more than that, I love the fact that you and I can sit down to a table and, or not a table, but you know what I mean.

Andrew: We'll get past that.

Montell: We can sit down and have… We can sit down and we can have conversations, real conversations, about who we are, who we are in Christ, the things that, we have the ills of society, that we have negative things that happen that impact us, but that we can have conversation about it and the world is very divided in a lot of different areas. If you look at everything from music, there's R&B music or there's pop music. What does that mean? There's CCM, contemporary Christian music, and there's gospel music. What does that mean? There's all these different types of… There's the black church and the evangelical church. What does that mean? There's these, especially in America, there's these dividing lines that color has played a huge part in the fabric of who we are. And so somehow my musical journey has allowed me not just to be a part of the community that birthed me but also to cross over into a community that accepted me, and then a world community to where I can go to Japan or Germany or anyplace else and those people embrace because of the music that speaks a universal language. So, that simply means this. We have 140 nations all represented here at Victory World Church, and my training ground, like I said, wasn't in bible college. It was in the music business. And so now when I stand before 140 different nationalities of people to lead worship, I understand, first of all, nobody's gonna be happy with worship because everybody wants their own style of music, but ultimately, it's my job to take what I learned from Japan and from Germany and from Nigeria and place all of those things to focus all of those cultures and those nationalities towards Jesus to be able to say I know what our preferences are and what our human culture is, but if we can put that down for a more Jesus response to who He is to us, we can enter into a place of worship, and that's one of the things I get to do here week in and week out at Victory.

Andrew: Don't you think when you say helping, because of your experience all over the world with music, and experiencing different cultures and languages and heritages and then bringing that together, like you said, to point all nationalities to Jesus, don't you think all nationalities are pointing to Jesus? In the sense of--

Montell: Yes.

Andrew: Isn't that a spiritual thing?

Montell: I do think all nationalities, many, I would say most are, in some way, if you are in some type of church or some type of religious context--

Andrew: Spiritual, yeah, uh-huh.

Montell: Spirituality, you're pointing towards Christ. I think the challenge is… I think it's interesting when you have to be around all white people to get to Christ. Or I'm more comfortable being around all black people coming to Christ. Or all Korean people.

Andrew: Sure, whatever it is, yeah.

Montell: Coming to Christ. All whatever people going to Christ, and so I'm trying to figure out if Christ says, "I'm coming back for a church, for a bride, without spot or blemish.” That, to me, doesn't say, "I'm coming back for the evangelical church. I'm coming back for the black church, I'm coming back for the Korean church, I'm coming back for the Roman Episcopalian church, I'm coming back for the Catholic.” I think he says, “I'm coming back for my bride.” And I think that bride is consisting of a whole lot of different people and nationalities that Jesus died for. And so with that being said, I just want to do my part. And I understand each church has a great diversity and a great historical value--

Andrew: Right, tradition.

Montell: Tradition, and I understand it 'cause tradition is important. I think what we are to our individual churches is extremely valuable. I think what we are for God's Church, and I say that specifically who we are for our church, is something that's very diverse. Who we are for God's Church I think is very, very inclusive because He's coming back for His Church. He's not coming back for a individual piece of the Church. He's coming back for His body. And so at some point, I love what I get to do at such and such Baptist church because there's a tradition that's rich there for that church. Now for the church, how do we take what's unique and diverse about that and then bring that into the entire body so that the entire body can be expressed in that diversity as opposed to try and keeping it separate? I think it's a big ploy, Andrew, if I'm honest, just that if we can keep churches segregated and separate from each other, how can God come back for His bride and the bride is split apart?

Andrew: Interesting. Yeah, well and it seems that need to define, that need to divide with definitions, is more reflective of culture, like a humanity, human culture, society, whatever, than it is of God. Because the diversity in the body of Christ, is that not a direct image reflection of God?

Montell: I believe so. I believe so, and I think diversity and division are not the same thing. And so diversity is an inclusive thing that if we have a potluck and I say, "Hey Andrew, will you come up to the house? Bring something that’s unique to you" and John, everybody that comes, somebody may bring Swedish meatballs. Somebody made macaroni and cheese. All the different foods and cultures or whatever, they come together to create this entire big thing where everybody can get sick just based (laughs) on--

Andrew: Yeah, right.

Montell: But the cool thing is you're getting an experience of kind of everything, and I just, and maybe it's just me. I've traveled the world enough to be able to know there’s such a value in other cultures and those other things that I feel stifled. I feel when I'm just tucked into one place. I just believe God is bigger than that. I value all of those religions. I value all of those different traditional pieces. I'm trying to figure out how can what you have there traditionally be added to the overall body of Christ as opposed to just being… And let me just say this real quickly. You may have to edit this out, I don't know. But from the standpoint of when it comes to just America in particular because of our background, because of slavery and because of segregation and Jim Crow, a lot of things have led to us not being able to be together as a Church. And when we go to the movie theaters, it's not like really black theaters and white theaters, everybody goes, but based on maybe what neighborhoods a theater might be in, then you can have maybe more of a particular demographic than another, but ultimately, in our jobs, in movie theaters, in restaurants, all these other places, we go and we're all together, but when we come to church, that's the one place where we kinda figure out I'm more comfortable with this group of people or that group of people. When we're getting closest to God is when we become less close with each other.

Andrew: Which is interesting because it's as if there's been an allowance for the things outside of the Church, things you're mentioning, like slavery, a set of systems outside of the Church, we've allowed to impose themselves on the Church.

Montell: Well, what does that say to the millennial generation? The millennial generation says, "I can work with this guy, I can work with an Indian person, I can work with a trans person, I can do this or that or the other, and we go to restaurants and this and that, but when I come to church, it's this one group of people.” It just kinda says something about--

Andrew: It doesn't resonate with them, for one. If all this is resonating based on a millennial who is open to all these things, to interacting with so many different people and that did not see that diversity represented--

Montell: In church.

Andrew: In church, makes the church irrelevant to some degree.

Montell: I think so.

Andrew: And I'm not saying church has to match culture, but I'm saying I think their inclusivity in everyday life is actually, and I think what we're saying, is an opportunity and the right opportunity for the Church.

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Mark: So he said that, which is the case, my uncle in the '50s told the story of taking a young African American man to his church, a friend, and the deacons met him at the door and said, "He's not welcome here.” And now, let's come forward to 2019--

Andrew: 50 years, 60 years.

Mark: I go to a church, Grace Church Humble, where most of the staff is white. They started the church, but most of the church is Latina, African American, and I am a minority. But that's, I don't know how it got like that. I don't know what they did to make it turn into that, other than those communities moved into the area.

Andrew: Yeah, because even Montell's church in Atlanta, north of Atlanta, Victory World Church, is very diverse, lots of nations represented, lots of racial diversity, age, multi-generational, but that isn't the norm, so I think it's an intriguing comment he made that the closer we get to God's often the further we separate from one another.

Mark: When we go to church.

Andrew: Right, yeah, like, he was saying we eat together—

Mark: Yeah, restaurants.

Andrew: And we go to school together.

Mark: Football games. But when you go to church, is your church mostly white?

Andrew: And is that a bad thing—

Mark: Or black?

Andrew: Too, like is that--

Mark: Is it black?

Andrew: Is that based on the demographic of your community? And some of that's tradition. I don't know that--

Mark: And is it a problem?

Andrew: The African American church down the street with the Pentecostal background wants to come to my lily white kind of reserved worship service.

Mark: I don't wanna go to your lily white reserved service.

Andrew: You've been to my reserved service. And you kinda shook it up. But yeah, I don't know that it's a bad thing, and I don't even know that Montell's saying it's a bad thing, but it is intriguing. How do we get the body that is the Church, the universal Church, the world-wide Church, the eternal Church of God?

Mark: Well, let's hear the rest of this conversation.

Andrew: Do you think that racism or prejudice of any sort is an obstacle to the spirit of God being able to move freely through and among us?

Montell: I think the Holy Spirit has a desire to be able to reign free, but I think God is a gentleman. I think that he's not gonna impose his will on anyone. And so from that standpoint I think that the bible says that there will come a day in time when people will have itching ears, and they'll just kinda wanna hear what they want to hear. They will say that good is evil and evil is good. So from that standpoint I think we're livin’ in a day and time where you can hear truth, but people prefer their truth over God's truth, and there's a difference. And so from that standpoint, I do believe that the Holy Spirit can be the power that the church can have becomes hindered when we are not showing what Jesus showed, and we're living more pharisitically. I don't know if that's a word.

Andrew: Sounds nice.

Montell: But we're, it did sound good though, pharisitically.

Andrew: Is that from the music industry or seminary?

Montell: That's seminary. No, no. No, but when we take on that stance, we look more like the people that are law keepers than the one that Jesus was trying to reach out to, the prostitute, the tax collector, the people that they said, "Why are you hanging with that person or that person?” I think when we live that way, we become this group that are so set in our agendas that we miss God's agenda of what He's trying to do in the earth. And there's nothing in me that believes God is trying to keep us separated from each other. I believe He wants us. I think He's coming back for us. He's coming back for His church. And so long as we can't be a us, I don't think He can come back. I don't think He will.

Andrew: Do you think, like we highlight a lot, the division, or we, I don't know who's we, but we see a lot whether it's through social media, through our news media, or just in our conversations, we talk a lot about the division because I think there's a really deep down innate sense that that's not the way we're designed to live, but there is also a lot of unity. I mean, there are stories of you that we don't hide as much. Do you think, and I don't know if this is a real fair question, but I'm gonna ask anyway. Do you think that the division among humans, like the divides, you think that's getting worse?

Montell: I think division amongst humanity right now is getting more defined. So, as far as worse, I think that when you shed a light on something and it becomes more defined, it's now being more exposed. So I think division has always been there. I just think it's more defined. I'll give you an example. I grew up most of my life in Los Angeles, California. Los Angeles is a melting pot of a bunch of different people and nationalities and X, Y, and Z, and if there is racism, and there is racism, it looks different in California than it does in the South. And when you're in the South, it looks different because it's more defined here. In Hollywood or in different places in the music business, those different things, it's just masked differently, and then there are certain places that we don't cover it up. It is what it is, you are who you are, and it's like, oh, this is what this is here. And so it doesn't make it more in the South. It just means it's more pronounced, or it's more defined. And so I don't know if we are getting more divisive. I do believe lines are becoming clearer and being more precision drawn so that you can be able to identify, oh, I know where you stand based on what you're showing as opposed to I don't know what this person stands for because they're not saying anything.

Andrew: Our director of photography, Chris, and I were just talking about this on the way over here, about is sometimes a racist remark or something perceived as racist or is racist, whatever, or a prejudice remark, can come from ignorance, like a lack of knowing. You talk about the difference, kinda the mass prejudice in, out West is different than in the colonial South, which was so entrenched in some systems that were very defined by race. Do you think it's a lack of education at times, and if it is, whose responsibility, is it responsibility to not only educate ourselves but help educate others?

Montell: This is a tough one. If we were sitting at a table eating, I would probably take a mouthful of food and really kind of focus on answering--

Andrew: Are you repaying me again?

Montell: No, no, I'm not, I'm not. No, I'm done with that. No—

Andrew: Montell, we'll get you around that table.

Montell: No, we don't got it like that, I'm tryin' to get back to the table, that's all. This is a tough one because what I've found is that when you are... America is a very, very unique nation. We were designed and built differently. Small things, small systematic or semantic things, are what are used in what we're creating here in America. Here's what I mean by that. I just saw this the other day. Someone shared on social media that there were so many slaves that were brought over from Africa to America. Slaves were brought over on slave ships to America. And someone said, “No, slaves weren't brought from Africa to America. Doctors and teachers and philosophers were brought over from Africa to America, and they were made into slaves.” Even in that, if you were to understand that it wasn't slaves brought over, they were doctors and they were this or that or the other that were brought over and they were placed into slavery, then that semantically, meaning just how we speak that, you understand now it wasn't just people who were slaves that were--

Andrew: Wandering around.

Montell: They were, yeah, they were, and so from that standpoint--

Andrew: People in families.

Montell: I think that we keep a culture, a language culture, that tries to continue to keep people maybe enslaved in a way of thinking, in a way of not having a level playing field, but the advancements I think that people of color have made in America have been astounding. And here's the point that I'm getting to. The ownness I think is not necessarily on the person who has been oppressed to now try and make amends with everyone. So what will happen is, in Atlanta last year, there was a huge, 2018, we had this huge, a one race movement that took place at Stone Mountain. And you had thousands and thousands of people from different churches all across Georgia come together to ascend Stone Mountain where a lot of things with the KKK and things were founded there. We wanted to pull down those strongholds as a united body of the church. A lot of black people and black churches said, "Yes, we wanna come together with the church, with other churches and come together and pull this thing down.” A lot of white churches, or evangelical churches, had some challenges with that because it's like, "Well, I don't know what our church is gonna say about comin' together with these other churches or what they're gonna say about racial reconciliation, about tippin' the apple cart.” And so one of the things that I had told to the guys that were doin' it, they did a excellent job with it, I said the challenges, if you don't get the side of, you aren't a slaveowner. It may have been great-great-great-great-grandfather or maybe not at all, but if I don't get you and me bein' able to come together to bring up the questions, to have the conversation, to bring healing, what it seems like is that the black folks or the African Americans are the ones that endured that, but now we're also the one tryin’ to bring everybody back together. And somebody from the other side needs to be able to say, “Hey, I'm with you in this. Let’s bring everybody back together.” So I think, hopefully not strayin' too far away from the original question, I think it requires not just people who have been affected by what our nation has been built on, but those that benefitted from, and some, well, we didn’t. Those that benefited from that, I think it's important for them to be able to help in the healing process because that's the only way that healing takes place. I don't wanna shield it, man, and the reality of it is, I mean, there are more movies comin' out about it now, more storylines, more social media, and Hollywood is tryin' to shed a light on something to help it be more defined, more pronounced, of some of the things that take place.

Andrew: That happened, yeah.

Montell: If you are speeding and you get pulled over by the police, you're probably thinking, why is this guy pulling me over? I'm like, if I'm speeding, the same thing that you're doin’, I'm not thinking, what is he pulling me over for? I'm literally thinking, I don't know if I'm gonna make it home. And that's a tough thing to say. It's a tough thing to say with you or to be on camera, but that's my reality. And someone said, "Why does he think?” Why do I think that? Because of our history. I know that there are certain things that people will look at you and they'll look at me, and there's just a certain thing that the fabric of our nation has me do things differently, and so because of that, if we don't discuss it and talk about it, then it becomes like we're overlooking something. We're getting over something rather than getting through it.

Andrew:: I think that's an interesting way to put it, which is sweeping it under the rug.

Montell: It's still there.

Andrew: And ignoring, and that it's still persistent if it's still there. It's still a nag. It's still an obstacle and a divide. I wonder if curiosity, because so many people don't either want to receive some kind of blame or they wanna shift blame, and really, like you said, it's not always about who to blame, it's just about coming together. I wonder if curiosity, if I could just be curious about your experience, and if you could be curious about mine, then the discussion could open up. Maybe if we could just be curious. I think about people who haven't had a lot of experience, maybe they haven’t traveled internationally, so they haven't seen cultures outside of our Western world and American kind of way, or maybe they haven't traveled, I know people who haven’t traveled out of their home state.

Montell: Never been, or out of the, yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, or out of their circumference of an hour.

Montell: Very narrow scope of what the world looks like.

Andrew: And naturally. You haven't experienced what you haven't experienced, so as you begin to experience it, and now more people are able to experience it through the avenues of news media, or even sometimes Hollywood depicting it accurately, et cetera, If I could ask questions about what I don't know, then you can help me. And if you ask questions about what you don't know, or ask questions or even I wonder, if I say something, I'm always curious, and we were talking about this again, is if I want to know if I've said something, this is anybody that hurts you, that is harmful to you, that is a step backwards instead of a step forwards, and the fact is I don't always know, but I want to know. So we have to remain curious about each other I guess. Does that resonate with you?

Montell: Absolutely, curiosity, I think it comes through a safety, though. In other words, I think there has to be a safety that only comes through relationship that says, "I trust you, you trust me. You know that I don't want to hurt you. I know you don't want to hurt me. There's some things that I want to know, and can we explore those things?"

Andrew: Together.

Montell: Together, and in that, can we explore them and not get offended with each other? We do that here at this church regularly. My pastor calls himself an equal opportunity offender because when you got so many different nationalities, he's gonna say something and it's gonna tick somebody off. But in order for us to all exist, we have to be able to see, well, I know there was not maliciousness in that. There's some truth in there, there's some comedy in there, and then there's some tough parts in there, and all that makes it a reality. So say that there's you and I, and we're having conversation, or we're having those safe curiosity conversations. The conversations are... I will have somebody that said to me that they have never been, when I got to college, they had never been around black people before. They wanted to touch my skin. They had never touched a black person before, and they wanted to touch my skin. Which is weird. But it's only weird if you don't have some type of dialogue or trust to understand I've been this place all my life, I've been in Indiana, I've never been around, I saw it on TV or whatever, and now I'm sitting here and I gotta black guy in front of me or whatever, I've never seen skin like, what does your skin, but some people are more liberal and they'll--

Andrew: Touch?

Montell: Can I touch your hair or can I, and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Andrew: Not at that--

Montell: We're not at that place of trust.

Andrew: Yeah, you can look at it.

Montell: We build to that place of trust. Different food things, different preferences, body types, all those types of things, you're able to have conversations about that, and I think when trust is there, you can have those tough conversations. I've had people, trust, it comes to the N-word. "Why do you guys get so offended when people say the N-word or whatever?” And then you have to be able to answer and say, "Well, here's what it means. Here's why it was offensive, and here's why X, Y, and Z, and here's why we turned it into a term of endearment, but it still sucks as a word and it's not really a term of endearment. We tried to take something bad and make it good, but it's not good, it's still derogatory.” And so there's so many complexities even amongst different races, but if we don't sit and have the conversation to be able to have a trust in place to be curious about it, you won't understand and you will just make assumptions. Well, he's super sensitive about that area. No, not super sensitive about that area. Had a grandfather, watched police pick him up and kick him around the street and call him this, that, or the other. So now that has formed my lens of X, Y, and Z, and you may not understand that unless we have that conversation. It's like, oh, that's why.

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Mark: Yeah, so when we have our next conversation, you can have coffee with us. Let's get back to the conversation.

Andrew: Part of building trust is also me being okay, you being okay when we say, not yet. Or it's not okay yet, can I touch your skin? Maybe once we know each other. Or something like... I think that's also what, and I think that proves curiosity, not some kind of, that we’re not science experiments to each other, et cetera, but we're really curious about one another and when I can say respect and say okay, and I might even explain here's why. This is, you know, changing my paradigm. If you had... I know you've already talked about how complex it is, and I think we all know how complex it is, and perhaps with so many more voices weighing in and having a platform to weigh in, it gets even a little bit more complex 'cause that's a lot of perspectives. And take away our cultural heritage, take away our skin color, we're all unique persons individually, period. With that said, if you had to try to boil it down to, I think I'm looking for an action point or interested in, what can we, so we have this tension. I think it would be unrealistic for anyone to think that disappears overnight, and in fact, as long as humanity is human we will find points of tension or we will discover new points of tension that maybe we didn't even know were points of tension. So that always will be. What do we do when we… How do we live together?

Montell: Great question, I think I have a decent answer for it. How do we live together, live together? I think you have people who exist together, but they don't live together. My house is a very diverse house. So outside of church, if you come to my home and you sit at the table, not just on special occasions, regularly, I have very different people that sit around my table and we have meals together and we have discussions together, and it's a common thing. We actually have a thing, look, we built a table, had a table built from scratch that literally can seat 16 people. This gigantic table. Somebody bought us a gift for the table, and we call it This Table. So literally, when we pray, we say, "God, bless This Table, the people that are around This Table.” And so we will call it the, hey, you're invited to This Table. And from that standpoint, we're very intentional as a family about reaching people that don't look like us. And to me, intentionality says, if I can do this in my home, I can do this in a church because how can I take care of God's house and I'm not taking care of my own house? If the vision of our house is to reconcile cultures, I can't not reconcile cultures at home and then come to a church and wonder why we're not comin' together. The only reason I think I can reach people that don't look like me or believe what I believe, this or that, is because that's the life that I live, not what I just… It's not just how I exist. It's me intentionally living to love people that don’t look like me or think like me, and I do life with those people. And so I'm the church. I don't expect the church to be a building or a place. I'm the church. And so that's a part of me. I don't know why I'm tearin' up. That's a part of me that I love because I think that’s a part that's integral to what the church is. And so I find myself doing that. How do we do it together? We have to live together. I know people that have all black churches or all white churches, and they will say, “Well, we're in a neighborhood that just caters to… It's just where we are demographically. There's no black people here.” Like, really? Find one. Find someone! Find someone, find a Indian guy. Find somebody that doesn't look like you, that doesn't eat with you either, think what you think, or this or that, and just be loving and just say, "Hey, I know this is super awkward, but I don't know anything about culture or this, that, or the other, and I'm curious if you would be willin’, I'm curious to know why do you eat what you eat or is there a great restaurant around here you can refer me to?” Or, "Are you willin’ to have a conversation? Can I take you for coffee just to know a little bit about your life?” And when you get into life with people, doing life with people outside the church, if we are the Church, we’re not outside the church, we are the Church doin' life with people, and then our churches start to reflect who we are in life. If I see an all black church, if I see an all white church, it's probably 'cause most of those people are living all black or all white lives. And I don't know that for a fact, but I would say there's a high probability that what their lives look like, it would be hard for me to believe that somebody is living a multi-cultural life with different foods and nationalities and people in their lives, but they go to church and their church is just one race. It'd be hard for me to believe.

Andrew: I think what you're talking about, it comes almost full circle back to you talking about growing up in the church. The church wasn't yet inside of you. And now it is.

Montell: I hope so. I hope so. I wanna be a good representation of, and the bible's filled with people that just failed and sucked. And that's a prayer that my wife and I have. We have a prayer that we wanna be one of those ones that finish well. I don't know how that plays out, but that's our heart's desire. We wanna finish well. Not just in Heaven, but here on this Earth, that people will be able to look and say, "Man, that guy loved to cross color lines. That guy loved across racial, he loved to cross financial disparity. He was a guy that just loved people.” And I think you can lead people and not be a pastor. I think pastoring requires you to love people. And that's one of the things, to a fault for me, that I wanna lead people, I wanna help people worship, I wanna see marriages restored, I wanna see men stronger, I wanna see legacies develop. But I wanna love people, man. And I think that's a lot of what's missing, is that we have laws and not love. And so for me, that requires a different type of mindset. I don't have to agree with you to love you. I don't have to agree with a law that was made or passed. I don't have to agree with a lifestyle. I don't have to agree with any of that to love you. And that's what I believe I'm sent here to do is not to try and judge anything or anyone. My job is to just love people and let God do the rest.

Andrew: I love you, Montell Jordan.

Montell: I love you too, Andrew Greer.

Andrew: Can I touch your skin?

Montell: Off camera.

Andrew: Well, I had so much fun with Montell Jordan in Atlanta.

Mark: I could tell.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. I mean, I am a huge fan first, but then to be also really a fan of his words and his heart and what he has to say, not just about diversity but about the people of God coming together, being together. I love that idea of being together.

Mark: I do too. And we hope you'll join us next time for another dinner conversation.

Andrew: Turning the light on, one question at a time.

Mark: Did you say anything worth hearing?

Andrew: No.

Mark: Okay. I hope you recorded all that.

Mark: From “This Is How We Do It” to the pulpit.

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today, by considering a generous gift.

Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times!

Andrew: It's incredible. Visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

Give generously here: fh.org/dinner.

Don’t Miss an Episode! Subscribe Today:

S02, E01: A Change of Mind featuring Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf

Watch Our Other Episodes:

S02, E03: The Humanity of Billy & Ruth Graham featuring Will Graham and Gigi Graham

S02, E04: Life After Divorce featuring Crystal Lewis

S02, E05: Place in this World featuring Michael W. Smith and Ginny Owens

S02, E06: God Is In The Details featuring Kathie Lee Gifford and Rabbi Jason Sobel

S02, E07: Winning Takes Work featuring Scott Hamilton and Paula Trujillo

S02, E09: The Thin Line Between Priest and Prophet featuring Becca Stevens and Russ Taff

S02, E10: The Color of Love featuring Seth & Nirva and Montell Jordan

4/25/19 4/25/19

Like A Child featuring Randall Goodgame

Singer-Songwriter Randall Goodgame may be a new generation's Mister Rogers. Infusing seemingly silly kids songs with life-inspiring truths, Goodgame's kids music event — wonderfully-titled Slugs & Bugs — has turned into an all-ages family affair. Our conversation is both parts fun and thoughtful — just like Randall.

Singer-Songwriter Randall Goodgame may be a new generation's Mister Rogers. Infusing seemingly silly kids songs with life-inspiring truths, Goodgame's kids music event — wonderfully-titled Slugs & Bugs — has turned into an all-ages family affair. Our conversation is both parts fun and thoughtful — just like Randall. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations. Subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.

Andrew: It's incredible, visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

Mark: Today our guest is Randall Goodgame. Now I had never heard of Randall because I don't have kids or grandkids, and he has a ministry to children. I mean, an incredible, he’s like a modern day Mister Rogers. And he takes Scripture and puts it to music.

Andrew: Mm-hmm, Randall's an incredible guy. I don't have kids or grandkids either. Randall's just a friend of mine here in Nashville, and Slugs & Bugs is the name of his series, a really fun series again about why is it important, one, to know Scripture, not only as children but as adults and how he is helping families literally hide the word of God in their hearts through music.

Mark: And we have one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.

Mark: So, how did you become the Mister Rogers of the Christian world?

Randall: Oh my goodness, is that what I am?

Mark: Well, that's what I heard. I've heard that you really have an incredible ministry to young people. You set Scriptures to music, which is not easy 'cause it doesn't meter like a song should. And evidently kids are responding.

Randall: Well, I guess so. So let me just say, 'cause you mentioned him, Fred Rogers, huge hero of mine, those slippers would be too big for me to fit. But yes, so I'm super inspired by getting to sing to kids, but also families, parents and kids together.

Andrew: 'Cause you started out, I mean, you've written songs for other Christian artists, for yourself--

Mark: Caedmon's Call.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jenny, one of our good friends Jenny Owens, which we've had on the show. But I think about it, yeah, kinda reiterating Mark. How did you first get into the kids' music mess? What first got you there?

Randall: Okay, so the doorway was a record that I made with our friend, Andrew Peterson, you guys know. So he and I did a side project back in 2006, and it was just meant to be just a side project with songs that we wrote for our kids. And then that CD got on the radar of VeggieTales. So they called us and said, “Hey, would you write silly songs for us?” And we're like, "Yes, amazing.” So we wrote silly songs for VeggieTales for a couple of years. And for Andrew, it was just something fun that we got to do. For me, it helped me realize, oh, wow, I love thinking about families, parents and kids, and it was like VeggieTales said, "Here's five minutes. Write a silly song and tens of thousands of families are gonna sit down and watch this together.” And to me that felt like this opportunity to really do something deeply meaningful. And our job was to be silly, but I was really drawn to the impact that you could have if you did have the attention of a parent and a child at the same time.

Andrew: Well, in families, they way I think about how Slugs & Bugs works musically, it's more acoustic driven. I think it's more astute artistically than kids' records that are all digitized or whatever, even the vocals. When you have people like Andrew Peterson on it or Bart Millard from MercyMe, I mean, there's adults playing into it for the kids, and so it seems to me that parents are probably less annoyed by Slugs & Bugs than other kids' music I've experienced.

Randall: That is definitely the goal. I mean, I guess that's the lowest bar. Don't be annoyed is the lowest bar. What we really want is for them to go, oh my gosh, let's play that again.

Mark: And that's what I-- Ellie was here. Ellie Holcomb was here, and I overheard her talking to you about what an impact you've had on her kids. You must hear that from a lot of parents.

Randall: It never gets old, I'll tell you that.

Mark: No, doesn't it? It doesn't it.

Andrew: Do you think they’re saying and more than impact on our kids, like it's impact on, like I don't sit in the car and listen to Scripture all day, so to have that resource where I'm playing music for my kids, but then Scripture's actually going through my mind and heart too. Would you say parents are part of the demographic when you're thinking about making a record?

Randall: Oh, absolutely. So, the last four Slugs & Bugs CDs I've made with our friend Ben Shive he and I make a list of all the people that we want, individual people that we want to love this record. And so we'll have one of his daughters' names on there, we'll have my wife on there, we'll have my brother's wife down in Houston, we'll have my cousin, different adults and different kids, so we're thinking about specific people with specific tastes ‘cause the goal is to reach everybody so that that whole family, from the grandparents to the three-year-olds are all glad when someone puts it in.

Mark: Well, if you're like me and you've never heard of this--

Andrew: Slugs & Bugs.

Mark: Well, yeah, I have no children, I have no grandchildren, but many of you watching do. I would say go get it. I guess they can get it from your website?

Randall: Yeah--

Mark: Which is what?

Randall: slugsandbugs.com

Mark: Where'd you come up with Slugs & Bugs?

Randall: It was from a lyric. There's a song that I wrote, it goes, God made slugs and bugs and rats and bats and nasty bees that don't say please. They'll sting your elbows and your knees if you chase them.

Mark: If you just what?

Randall: If you chase them, if you chase them.

Mark: Oh, if you chase them. I will make sure I don't do that.

Randall: I mean, but I didn't start writing the Scripture songs. I wrote silly songs kinda like that for a couple of years for Slugs & Bugs, and then what got me to the Scripture songs was we were homeschooling and it was my job to teach the kids bible and music.

Mark: Wow.

Randall: It was my two jobs. So a big part of bible, right, memorizing Scripture, seems like I can figure this out. No, no. It was so hard.

Andrew: It is hard.

Randall: Yeah. I mean, it's hard. We all know it's hard for us, but then as a parent you think, okay, I'm gonna teach my kids and they're gonna memorize Scripture. And it just didn't work.

Mark: So there was a need.

Randall: So there was a need, and so I started writing melodies--

Mark: What's the first one you wrote?

Randall: The first one was, Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your path.

Mark: Wow.

Randall: So trust in the Lord with all your heart. Sorry.

Mark: And the kids pick up on that.

Randall: They learned it. And the thing that they kept… They would memorize a verse for a week, but then two weeks later they would've forgotten the one from two weeks before. But what we found was a month later, two months later, they were still remembering the verses. And then, since it worked so well for them, it just made sense to wanna try--

Mark: Well, making the Scriptures meter like we think a song should do, if you're gonna teach a songwriting course, learning how to meter would be part of it.

Randall: For sure.

Mark: So Scriptures, what Scripture has been the biggest challenge?

Randall: Oh man.

Andrew: Jesus wept.

Mark: No, no, no. I mean, surely. Also, how do you choose which Scriptures to use?

Randall: Well, right, usually I'm thinking about themes. So this past record, the one that comes out, it's just come out, Sing the Bible, Volume 3, the theme is the life and words of Jesus. So things that He said, or things about Him or His mission and that seemed like they would fit together, the things that He said that I want my kids to remember first. I'm thinking about my children and then all the other families that listen to Slugs & Bugs, their children. So something as simple as I am the vine, you are the branches, and then the verse that goes to there, abide in me as I in you and as the branch will not bare fruit by itself unless you abide in the vine. But then, so simple passages like that, all the way to the passage from Colossians that’s He is the image of the invisible God first born among all creation and so on. I mean, I could tell you... Personally, I always say, all these Scripture songs, they serve me first, because I wind up memorizing, well, Scripture, which I never would've done if I hadn't had to do that for others.

Mark: I want copies. Let's all get copies. We can memorize Scriptures the easy way.

Randall: I brought some.

Mark: Oh, good. I love memorizing Scripture, but I do love memorizing The Message 'cause it's easier for me to understand.

Andrew: Do you think it's more musical in some ways?

Mark: I think it's more poetic for me. Like when he says that line about learn the unforced rhythms of grace.

Randall: Hmm, wow.

Mark: Where it says, "Are you tired, worn out, burned out on religion? Come to me, get away with me, and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me, work with me, watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace.” I mean, the man's a poet.

Andrew: That's the come unto me, you who are weary--

Mark: Yeah, it's beautiful.

Randall: Wow.

Andrew: Well, in a world of relativity, I think we live in a culture that there's a lot of relativity, relative truth.

Mark: Now what? Wait, wait. What is relative truth?

Andrew: Relative truth would be like your own truth.

Mark: I don't believe in that.

Andrew: So there's a-- I agree. We would agree on that. Culturally, I don't think that's the agreement.

Mark: Oh, you mean the culture.

Andrew: The culture, today's culture. Would you agree with that and there's this part of helping raise children, why is truth so important?

Mark: Yeah, yeah. How do we get back to that, where people know the truth, and what is that? I mean, when I was growing up, we didn't have craziness going on. I mean, at least they kept it hidden. That's better. No, I'm kidding. We didn't hear it on the news. No, but I'm sorry. I should’ve let your question lay. What was it?

Andrew: Or linger.

Randall: I know what you're saying though. And maybe it means that as parents that know the truth, there is absolute truth, Jesus is the truth, that we just have to work that much harder to make sure that we exhibit that trust and faith in Him in the home, so that kids, they go out into the world, but they come home. So I think one of the things that can sometimes help lead kids to leave the church is that they, at home, the home ends up just reflecting the culture too. And so why cling to the rules if it doesn't really impact them the way that we are.

Andrew: Sure. Or no one told me they were important even. I heard them, but no one said this is important because. And music is such a generous medium. I think about, the bible has been used in toxic ways in some people's lives. That's another reason sometimes people get a bad view of Scripture or a bad view of God as represented in the Scripture. I feel like teaching the Scripture through music is a very gracious way of… Have you found that to be true with your kids, or even from your upbringing, being like, this is the way the bible was used that I wouldn't agree with. Music has given us a way to express it with grace.

Randall: It is. It's safer than just making someone read. If you say, "Hey, let's learn this song,” it feels a little less intimidating. And I mean, you're certainly joining an ancient tradition.

Mark: How cool would that be to have a kid and I could just see when you were singing the song about conqueror, more than conquerors, we are more than conquerors, I can just see a little kid on that just singing at the top of his lungs like I used to do between Nanny and Papa. That's back when we didn't care about our kids so much, and you could stand up in the front seat. You remember that?

Randall: Oh yeah, sure.

Mark: You might be too young for that, but I'm thankful. Is there anyone else doing what you're doing? I mean, I know there are--

Randall: Sure.

Andrew: Children's music.

Mark: Children's ministers, and there are also writers, publishers that do children's-- But a guy that goes around and just creates for children, I don't know that many. Do you?

Randall: There's guys out there, like Seeds Family Worship, guys here in town, they do a great job.

Mark: Well, that's great.

Randall: But, I mean, you can't have too much of that for sure.

Andrew: Well, I wanna take it back to what you said about more than conquerors. Can you imagine seeing a kid standing up singing that? They're singing it now maybe without as much personal experience with what it means to be more than a conqueror through Christ. Maybe they haven’t experienced certain hardships. I mean, I as a child, it was not until I was in college that I really experienced personal experiences that caused me to doubt or where I had to lean on my faith and really trust and learn to trust in God. I think about that. If I learned that as an 8-year-old, I'm more than a conqueror through Jesus, how that will come back to me because of how you are tutoring kids and Scripture through music. I would probably end up singing that chorus as a 21-year-old--

Randall: And it would mean a lot more to you.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, isn’t that kind of the point of hiding Scripture in our heart?

Randall: Yeah, that is the whole, I mean, a huge motivator for me. Knowing that these kids, just like when you teach your kids at home by parents, we have to keep in mind that this is a long game, right? You're gonna have to say it again and again and again, and then suddenly, they're gonna be 19 and it’ll just be part of who they are. And same thing with these songs. If you just sing them over and over and over, eventually they just become part of who you are, and there's something about music that, not that it means more necessarily 'cause it still means the same thing, but there's some kinda alchemy that happens with singing. I mean, that's what, right? That’s what the angels are doing forever. They're singing. They're not just saying, "Holy, holy, holy." They're singing it. And so there's something unique about song. That song is a good example, the we are more than conquerors. I can read that passage, "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor demons, nor the present, the future, any powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all Creation shall be able to separate us from the love of Jesus Christ our Lord.” I can read that, still get a little chills, but if I sing it, I have to keep it together because of the meaning that is sort of pumping out. There's something else that's happening. There's a passage in Ephesians that says, "I pray that you will…" Oh, it's how's, whatever it says, a knowledge that you grasp the Gospel, a knowledge beyond knowledge, where there's something other than just knowledge that's happening. There's something else. That's how He wants us to know the Lord, and I think there's something that happens with music that's similar that happens.

Andrew: It connects us in that place.

Mark: Have you found a Scripture that you haven't been able to figure out how to make it work?

Randall: Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, every time. Every time I go in to making a record, I have more Scripture than I could ever fit, and then some of them, I'm working at it and I'm working at it and I'm working at it, and I get it. And then sometimes it's just--

Mark: Not yet.

Randall: Not yet. That's a good way to put it. Not yet.

Andrew: I'd probably just go, I don't like that Scripture.

Mark: Oh, ain't it great? What a great co-writer you're working with.

Randall: Yes, yes.

Mark: He collects all of the royalties.

Andrew: Oh, that's funny. That's a great one.

Mark: If you hear the right translation.

Randall: That's right. Certain translations are more expensive than others. That's true.

Randall Goodgame singing “More Than Conquerors”

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ
Shall trouble or hardship, persecution
Or famine or nakedness
Danger or sword
No, in all these things
We are more than conquerors
Through Him who loved us
Through Him who loved us
More than conquerors
We are more than conquerors

For I am convinced that neither death nor life
Nor angels nor demons
Nor the present, the future, nor any powers
Neither height, nor death
Nor anything else in all Creation
Shall be able to separate us
From the love of God
That is in Jesus Christ, our Lord
No, in all these things
We are more than conquerors
Through Him who loved us
Through Him who loved us
More than conquerors
We are more than conquerors

No, in all these things
We are more than conquerors
Through Him who loved us
Through Him who loved us
More than conquerors
We are more than conquerors
More than conquerors
Through Him who loved us
Through Him who loved us
More than conquerors
We are more than conquerors
We are more than conquerors

Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years. And right now Food for the Hungry is helping hundreds of thousands of Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh.

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Mark: So $25 becomes $550, $50 becomes $1,100, and so on. Countless families urgently need our help. Donate to Food for the Hungry today, and your generous gift will literally help save lives.

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Andrew: You were saying something about Gloria Gaither. Talking about kids, I think sometimes in the context--

Mark: She contends that kids-- Like my college professors told me that the King James Version, which was what we always used, is on a third grade reading level. And Gloria says we don’t need to dumb down anything for children. They can get it. They're smarter than we think, and they love big words.

Randall: Sure, yeah.

Mark: Even conqueror, what a great word.

Andrew: And mysterious concepts.

Mark: And I really think that they haven't been-- That's why babies are born mute because if they could talk, they'd tell us what God was like. I think they come from God. Of course I believe the bible says that, and that's why they have to come mute. And what you're doing is early on reminding them where they come from with those Scriptures, reminding them of home.

Randall: Well, you know, it reminds me of Luke 18. Actually, it's in all three of the first Gospels, where it says, Jesus says to his disciples, unless you come like a child, we can't come into the Kingdom of Heaven. And for me, that means a lot of things, but that sense of--

Mark: Wonder.

Randall: Well, there's, yeah, wonder for sure. But also, I mean, I hadn’t thought about the fact that they're mute. But I think a lot about how they're messy and needy and they run to you and ask you what they need, they tell you what they need, and without reservation, they're not shy about it. They expect you to provide for them. So all of those ways, the Lord is saying, unless you are needy for me, are willing to be messy in front of me, are willing to tell me what you need right away. And think about how children are so quick to forgive. Children, my kids, I might yell at ‘em and then later be like, "I'm sorry."

Mark: I think one more thing--

Randall: “I forgive you.”

Mark: They are-- Is that they-- When it says, come as a child, my pastor said one time, and I loved this, you've gotta forget everything you think you know about God. We're starting with a clean slate. Jesus said, come to me like a child. 'Cause, you know, He did. He had to correct a lotta stuff.

Andrew: And everything you’ve been told about God, to actually reopen the Scripture to say, I desire to discover Him, instead of saying, oh, this is what I've been told Scripture says about you. Open it up. Who are you? And which I think is the clean slate idea.

Randall: So people say that you should-- A lot of times people are tempted to dumb things down for kids. And there's that quote that's often attributed to different philosophers or theologians about the gospel is deep enough for an elephant to swim in, but shallow enough for a little baby to play. But I think where we trip up as adults is we think that it's complex, and we wanna dumb it down because we think that it's something to know instead of someone to know.

Mark: Ooh.

Randall: Kids are always-- They're ready to meet you, and yeah, it's gonna be too complex if you want them to learn a bunch of things. But if you say, "This is your Savior. He loves you, and He knows you. This is a person,” then they get to grow and understand the gospel at the level that they're supposed to at whatever age they are.

Mark: I applaud you, and I pray to God you got a good 20 years left to reach the kids.

Randall Goodgame singing “Let the Children Come to Me”

Let the children come to me
Let the children come to me
Do not hinder them for to such
Belongs the Kingdom of God
Let the children come to me
Let the children come to me
Do not hinder them for to such
Belongs the Kingdom of God

Truly I say to you
Whoever will not receive the
Kingdom of God like a child
Shall not enter it
Truly I say to you
Whoever will not receive the
Kingdom of God like a child
Shall not enter it

Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message

Mark: You can help save thousands of lives by giving a generous gift to Food for the Hungry today.

Andrew: Your gift will directly help Rohingya refugees who are currently living in dire, poverty stricken refugee camp conditions in Bangladesh.

Andrew: This is the example that has been set for us by Jesus that we would help our neighbors in their time of need, and this is what Food for the Hungry is doing to help relieve the refugee crisis in Bangladesh. So you can give today. Partner with Dinner Conversations as we partner with Food for the Hungry by giving generously at fh.org/dinner.

Mark: To learn more about Dinner Conversations, visit dinner-conversations.com.

Andrew: And while you're there, check out our Season One DVD with all of our past episodes and some bonus stuff, as well as check out these cool show mugs.

Mark: Yeah, so when we have our next conversation, you can have coffee with us. Let's get back to the conversation.

Mark: When did you come to know the Lord personally?

Randall: So I grew up in the Baptist church, always going to church with my parents. But I remember as a Baptist kid, you're always hearing, say the sinner's prayer, come down the aisle and stuff. And I had never done that, and I remembered-- I remember being in science class in fifth grade, and I got picked on a bunch and wasn't happy, and I remember sitting about halfway back in the class and just bowing my head and saying the prayer. "Lord, I need You. This must be what it means to realize that I need--" Whatever I'm sure it was in a fifth grader's language, but I raised my eyes and the heavens opened.

Andrew: And clouds said Slugs & Bugs. A last kind of question, what have you learned-- I'm really interested in this. As you've incorporated Scripture into music for children and then see children on the road, seeing your own children learn Scripture, incorporate in their lives, what have you learned about God through observing children? Or through your relationships with children, your own children? You see a lot of children.

Randall: Yeah, okay, so definitely I have learned his long suffering because as a parent, you know you're constantly having to be patient, and I know that every time I have to be patient with my kids, I have to be confronted with the reality that the Lord has to be much, much, much, much more patient with me. So for sure, and actually what comes to mind as I mentioned earlier, but when I play my concerts, it's always kinda messy. The children, there’s always some kid losing it. At least one kid, and I don't know why, maybe he's hungry, didn't get his nap.

Mark: You have to sing over that.

Randall: Yeah, well, so, what I see, what ends up happening is a mom or a dad or somebody will end up scooping them up, taking them out of the room and going back into some room somewhere and then maybe eventually brings him back in. And what I know has happened in those minutes where he's been gone is whenever that parent, whichever it was, they took him out into a room, and they just held him. And they patted him, and they comforted him or her and said, "Oh, it's okay. It's gonna be okay.” Whatever they needed, brought 'em whatever they needed, whether it was something to eat or just a hug or just time to settle down, and they bring them back in, and I think every time that happens that that's what the Lord does for me. So watching other parents has been a gift for me in that way, and it reframes for me disturbances in a concert because I see that and I’m like, oh, thank you, Lord for the reminder of what You're like. So, I'd say in a way that’s something that parents and kids are constantly reminding me of.

Mark: That's good.

Andrew: That's beautiful. Do you need a hug?

Randall: Could I have a hug? I always need a hug.

Mark: Let's sing. It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood. A beautiful day in our neighborhood You--

Mark: If you don't know the words, don't sing it. Would you be mine. That's all. I'm out of-- I've always wanted to live in a neighborhood with you.

Andrew: Mister Rogers wasn't around when you were a kid, right?

Mark: Uh-uh, but I overhear it. Let's make the most of this beautiful day. Since we're together, we might as well say good night. Would you be mine? Could you be mine? Won't you be my neighbor? And I loved him.

Randall: Yeah, man.

Andrew: It's a great melody too. It's kinda--

Mark: He wrote it.

Andrew: He did?

Randall: Thanks, Mark.

Mark: I wanna learn 'em too.

Andrew: You got 15 more to go.

Randall: I always say--

Mark: Oh. It's my phone.

Randall: I know that song too.

Mark: That means it's over and I got to go.

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

Andrew: Help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of refugee lives today by considering a generous gift.

Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.

Andrew: It's incredible. Visit fh.org/dinner to give now.

Give generously here: fh.org/dinner.

Don’t Miss an Episode! Subscribe Today:

S02, E01: A Change of Mind featuring Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf

Watch Our Other Episodes:

S02, E03: The Humanity of Billy & Ruth Graham featuring Will Graham and Gigi Graham

S02, E04: Life After Divorce featuring Crystal Lewis

S02, E05: Place in this World featuring Michael W. Smith and Ginny Owens

S02, E06: God Is In The Details featuring Kathie Lee Gifford and Rabbi Jason Sobel

S02, E07: Winning Takes Work featuring Scott Hamilton and Paula Trujillo

S02, E09: The Thin Line Between Priest and Prophet featuring Becca Stevens and Russ Taff

S02, E10: The Color of Love featuring Seth & Nirva and Montell Jordan

S02, E11: Diversity Living Together featuring Montell Jordan

12/10/18 12/10/18

And Another Dinner Conversations Christmas

Dinner Conversations co-hosts Mark Lowry and Andrew Greer holly jolly their way through a half-hour of holiday songs and conversations featuring some of Christian music's favorite artists — Matt Maher, Danny Gokey, Crystal Lewis, Ginny Owens and Jaci Velasquez and Nic Gonzales. Plus, Mark and Andrew perform special acoustic Christmas classics.

Dinner Conversations co-hosts Mark Lowry and Andrew Greer holly jolly their way through a half-hour of holiday songs and conversations featuring some of Christian music's favorite artists — Matt Maher, Danny Gokey, Crystal Lewis, Ginny Owens and Jaci Velasquez and Nic Gonzales. Plus, Mark and Andrew perform special acoustic Christmas classics.

Transcript

Mark: Okay, now how do you do C minor?

Andrew: Oh, C minor?

Mark: Yeah.

Andrew: One, two, three. Put your fat finger right over there.

Mark: Right there?

Andrew: Yup.

Mark: Mary, did you know that your... That's all I know. I just learned how to play the ukulele. Welcome to our Christmas edition.

Mark & Andrew: Of Dinner Conversations.

Mark: Turning the Christmas light on one episode.

Andrew: One bulb at a time.

Mark: Period.

Andrew: Oh, episode.

Mark: The Christmas episode.

Andrew: We did two last year and it was too, too, much. Well, it was only one too much, 'cause we're doing one this year.

Mark: So what do you like about Christmas?

Andrew: Honestly, this is not just because this is a Dinner Conversations episode with lots of music, but I love Christmas music. It's so sad.

Mark: Is it?

Andrew: I think it's so melancholic in a way.

Mark: Christmas music?

Andrew: In a beautiful way.

Mark: A lot of them are done in the minor key. Mary, did you... Hey, why don't we start off with Crystal Lewis.

Crystal Lewis singing “Go Tell It On the Mountain” featuring Blaine Johnson

[Director] You can go ahead and roll cameras, roll audio.

Yeah, oh
While shepherds kept their watchin’
O'er silent flocks by night
Behold throughout the heavens
There shone a holy light
Shepherds feared and trembled
When low above the earth
Rang out the angel chorus
That hailed our Savior's birth

Go tell it on the mountain
Over the hills and everywhere
Go tell it on the mountain
Jesus Christ is born

When I was a seekerI sought both night and day
I asked the Lord to help me
And he showed me the way
Down in a lowly manger
Our humble Christ was born
God sent our salvation
That blessed Christmas morn

Go tell it on the mountain
Over the hills and everywhere
Go tell it on the mountain
Jesus Christ is born
Said go, go
Go tell it on the mountain
Over the hills and everywhere
Go tell it on the mountain
That Jesus Christ is born
Yeah, yeah, Jesus Christ, he's born
Jesus Christ is bornJesus Christ is born

Merry Christmas, everybody.

Andrew: What do you love about Christmas?

Mark: Doughnuts.

Andrew: Gross.

Mark: Anytime of year.

Andrew: It's so gross.

Mark: Christmas, Thanksgiving, birthdays, holidays. Hanukkah, oh, nothing like a doughnut on Hanukkah.

Andrew: I don't know that Jewish people eat doughnuts.

Mark: I'm Jewish. I'm 11% Jewish. Don't talk to me about my Jewish heritage.

Andrew: You know what, tell me a little bit about this jacket that you're slobbering all over.

Mark: Well, in 1992, when I was young and just getting started and wanted to be seen and recognized I started buying stupid clothes. 'Cause they called me a comedian I didn't wanna be comedian. But they're, hey, you're a comedian, okay. So I bought clothes that went along with that. I had a striped suit that I wore in People magazine. I had that same striped suit I wore on the cover of CCM Magazine. So that striped suit, I wish I had that back. I gave it away once I got.

Andrew: Maybe someone has it.

Mark: I don't know, but, I took all these clothes to the Baptist Children's Home.

Andrew: Tennessee Baptist Children's Home.

Mark: And said, “Hey, y'all want these?” 'Cause I thought the kids would enjoy these fun clothes so I, that's the last I saw 'em 'til today when you brought this in.

Andrew: And someone who goes to my church, it was their son that you gave this jacket to.

Mark: Well, I gave it to the Children's Home and he must have gone in there and stolen it.

Andrew: I think they were at the Children's Home.

Mark: Oh, maybe he was one of the children.

Andrew: I think he was.

Mark: Well, I'm wearing it today. Thank you, Rick, for lending me my jacket. Who's singing next?

Matt Maher singing “Hark the Herald! Angels Sing”

Hark the herald angels sing
Glory to the newborn King
Peace on earth, and mercy mild
God and sinners reconciled
Joyful, all ye nations, rise
Join the triumph of the skies
With angelic host proclaim
Christ is born in Bethlehem
Hark the herald angels sing
Glory to the newborn King

Christ, by highest heaven adored
Christ, the everlasting Lord
Late in time behold him come
Offspring of the virgin's one
Veiled in flesh, the Godhead see
Hail, Incarnate Deity
Pleased, as man, with men to dwell
Jesus, our Emmanuel
Hark the herald angels sing
Glory to the newborn King

And the angels, they sing
And the heavens, they ring
Won't you raise up your voice
Join the song of the King
Singing glory to God
And peace on the earth
Sing it out now, song of the King

La, la, la, lie
La, la, la, lie
La, la, la, la, lie, lie
La, la, la, lie
La, la, la, lie
La, la, la, la, lie, lie

Hail the heaven-born Prince of Peace
Hail the Son of Righteousness
Light and life to all he brings
Risen with healing in his wings
Mild he lays his glory by
Born that man no more may die
Born to raise the sons of earth
Born to give them second birth
Hark the herald angels sing
Glory to the newborn King

And the angels, they sing
And the heavens, they ring
Won't you raise up your voice
Join the song of the King
Singing glory to God
And peace on the earth
Sing it out now, song of the King

La, la, la, lie
La, la, la, lie
La, la, la, la, lie, lie, lie
La, la, la, lie
La, la, la, lie
La, la, la, la, lie, lie, lie
La, la, la, lie
La, la, la, lie
La, la, la, la, lie, lie, lie
La, la, la, lie
La, la, la, lie
La, la, la, la, lie, lie, lie

Available now! Season One of Dinner Conversations on DVD

Mark: Season One of Dinner Conversations is available now. This four-disk DVD features all the table talk from our first season, plus never before seen bonus content.

Andrew: Buy your copy of the new Dinner Conversation DVD set wherever you shop for the items you love and head over to dinner-conversations.com for exclusive show merchandise available only online.

Mark: So we got one seat left, and it's yours. Join us for Dinner Conversations.

Andrew: Turning the light on, one question at a time.

Andrew: All right, so you know one of my favorite things about Christmas is games. After music, it's games, and you remember last.

Mark: I like games, too, but.

Andrew: You don't like my games?

Mark: Well?

Andrew: Okay, but you're gonna play with this one.

Mark: Okay.

Andrew: This game.

Mark: Okay.

Andrew: All right, so I'm gonna hum.

Mark: And honestly, people, I have no idea what we're fixin' to do, isn't that right? Do you testify to this?

[Man] True.

Mark: They wouldn't tell me what we're, so I. You're hearing it same time I am and God help us.

Andrew: Okay. So I'm going to hum a Christmas tune and you're gonna try to guess it.

Mark: How many notes I get?

Andrew: Oh, I don't know, just, like, first phrase.

Mark: Now, will they be in pitch, flat or sharp?

Andrew: I sing beautifully, you just.

Mark: I need to pay attention to sharp or flat?

Andrew: I get a little sharp.

Mark: Oh, okay, I'll pay attention.

Andrew: Ready?

Mark: Hark the herald… Is that?

Andrew: But you're flat.

Mark: Angels sing

Andrew: Good, okay, one point for Mark.

Mark: That isn't the way it goes.

Andrew: It's exactly the way it goes.

Mark: Hark the…

Andrew: Doesn't it?

Mark: Does it, anyway, go ahead.

Andrew: Second one.

Mark: Do I get to give you one?

Andrew: No, not yet.

Mark: Okay. … I’ll do it in my key. Oh little town of Bethlehem

Andrew: Very good, I was playing this.

Mark: I don't know if you did the right notes.

Andrew: With Chris, our assistant director, earlier, and he.

Mark: He didn't get it?

Andrew: No, he didn't get any of these.

Mark: Wow.

Andrew: Okay, I'm gonna give you three more.

Mark: I saw mommy kissing Santa Claus

Andrew: Oh my gosh, I did not.

Mark: Underneath the mistletoe last night

Andrew: Okay, okay, your mom didn't kiss Santa Claus.

Mark: She didn't see me creeping

Andrew: Did your mom believe in Santa Claus?

Mark: Down the stairs to take a peep. Yes, she did. I believed in Santa Clause 'til I was 18.

Andrew: Okay, listen.

Mark: Oh, I've heard of that. I don't think we did that one though. … Is that right?

Andrew: You don't know it, do you?

Mark: No.

Andrew: You got like three seconds. Three, two.

Mark: I don't.

Andrew: “Jolly Old St. Nicholas,” finally got one.

Mark: Oh, I don't know that one.

Andrew: You don't? It was the first thing you learn on piano.

Mark: I've heard it, but it's nothing I've ever played.

Andrew: When you take piano lessons, it was the first thing.

Mark: I never played on it.

Andrew: Okay, last one.

Mark: Oh, I know that one.

Andrew: What is it?

Mark: It sounds a lot like, if it was in pitch. No, do it again. Mary did you know… Is there another song that's that?

Andrew: No, that's “Mary, Did You Know?”

Mark: Okay, I thought it was a trick question.

Andrew: It's not a trick. Do you remember who sang “Mary, Did You Know?” right here for us on this Christmas special?

Mark: Oh, yeah.

Andrew: Tell us about that experience.

Mark: Well, Danny Gokey. Yeah, when he was here, he sang “Mary, Did You Know?” And it was a moment. I mean, I've heard it a billion times, right.

Andrew: But you cried.

Mark: I did, don't hold that against me. I was touched, I was moved. I mean, first of all, his voice, right, it's amazing. And he's anointed, it's without repentance. God passes out anointing like we pass out Halloween candy. He just, if you got it, you got it, if you don't, you don't. He's got it. And I heard from home.

Andrew: Lucky for us he sang it that day. Today for the Christmas special, I'll be singing it.

Mark: Okay, you're gonna sing it?

Andrew: No, I'm not. Danny's gonna sing it.

Mark: Oh, Danny.

Danny Gokey singing “Mary, Did You Know?”

Mary, did you know
That your baby boy
Would one day walk on water
Mary, did you know
That your baby boy
Would save our sons and daughters
Did you know that your baby boy
Has come to make you new
This child that you delivered
Would soon deliver you

Mary, did you know
That your baby boy
Would give sight to a blind man?
Mary, did you know
That your baby boy
Would calm a storm with his hands
Did you know that your baby boy
Has walked where angels trod
When you kiss your little baby
You kiss the face of God

Mary, did you know
Mary, did you know
The blind will see
The deaf will hear
The dead will live again
The lame will leap
The dumb will speak
The praises of the lamb
Oh, Mary

Mary, did you know
That your baby boy
Is Lord of all creation
Oh Mary, did you know
That your baby boy
Will one day rule the nations
Did you know that your baby boy
Is heaven's perfect lamb
The sleeping child you're holding
Is the great I am
He's the great I am

Oh, the blind will see
The deaf will hear
And the dead will live again
He's the great I am
He's moved me, he's healed thee'
Cause he's the great I am
He shall be called wonderful
A counselor, he's the great I
There's healing in his hands
And lightning in his eyes
Truly this man is
He's the great I am

Andrew: Yeah.

[Man] Mark, it's actually not bad.

Mark: Oh my Lord, have mercy, I'm in tears.

Danny: Because of bad notes?

Mark: 'Cause it was so anointed.

Danny: Thank you.

Mark: Oh my Lord, have mercy, y'all.

Danny: Man, wow, you guys, Mark.

Mark: You saw it here, live.

Andrew: Mark, I just need to get you closer, but I've never seen this before. Mark's crying.

Mark: I do have a heart.

Andrew: So, I've heard you talk about this before and I think it's a fascinating conversation. Do you think Mary knew?

Mark: I don't know, or I wouldn't have asked.

Andrew: There you have it.

Mark: I mean, that's the truth.

Andrew: Merry Christmas.

Mark: I don't know, how would I know? I obviously don't think she knew he walked on water, he would walk on water, no one knew. She knew what the angel told her but really, what did he tell her? He told her a sword would pierce your heart this is gonna hurt. But, you know, a sword obviously wasn't literal. A sword didn't pierce her heart. But her heart was broken on Calvary when her first-born was mutilated. What else did the angel tell her?

Andrew: I mean, do you think she knew He was the Son of God? Do you think really knew that?

Mark: I think so, I mean. But, see, I don't even think Jesus knew everything. I believe when God came to earth He put aside His omniscience.

Andrew: Right, to live it.

Mark: His omnipresence, He could not be everywhere at once. I'm sure He would walk into a room and say, “Hey, have you seen Peter?”

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Mark: “Where's Mama?” Of course, I think he skinned his knee. I think he bled before Calvary. I think he got hungry. I think he became human. And all that that entails. But even what He knew. I believe He grew in favor with God and man as the Scriptures say. And I believe when he studied prophesy like they all did His picture was hanging by all of them. The prophesies were all about Him. I do believe His mother could have had many conversations with Him that we don't know about about the night the angel came.

Andrew: Sure, um hmm.

Mark: Sure, so I don't know, if just like us. I know God a lot better than I do the day I first met him. June 5, 1973 at a church camp in Nacogdoches, Texas called Beulah Land. That Jesus I met there is the same Jesus I know now, but they don't look anything alike.

Andrew: Isn't that interesting.

Mark: So, I don't know.

Luke 1:46-50

And Mary said,

“My soul glorifies the Lord,

And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

For he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant.

From now on all generations will call me blessed;

For the Mighty One has done great things for me.

Holy is his name.

His mercy extends to those who fear him,

From generation to generation.

Andrew Greer singing “My Soul Sings”

Andrew: Two, three.

His favor on meI have been blessed
The mighty one
He's done brave things
He's shown mercy to me
Holy His name
Strength in His arms
He's protecting me

My soul sings
My soul sings
My soul sings
Great is our God
Great is our God

Down in the mire
He pulled me out
Wave after wave
His goodwill flow
By His gracious hands
The hungry will be fed
Though naked and meek
His righteousness
Clothed me in majesty

My soul sings
My soul sings
My soul sings
Great is our God
Great is our God

Mark: Hi, I'm Mark Lowry.

Andrew: And I'm Andrew Greer.

—

Andrew: This is Dinner Conversations.

Mark: Turning the light on, one question at a time.

—

Mark: Oh, Father in heaven.

—

Mark: Are we ready?

Andrew: I think so.

Mark: Our Season Two guests include singer-songwriter Amy Grant, Grammy winner Michael W. Smith with Ginny Owens, and Today Show host Kathie Lee Gifford. American Idol Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf. Olympic gold medalist Scott Hamilton. Author and speaker Lisa Harper. Thistle Farms Founder and Pastor Becca Stevens. Preacher Will Graham with Billy Graham's daughter, Gigi Graham. Gold-selling country artist Julie Roberts. Singing duo Seth & Nirva and multi-award-winning female vocalist Crystal Lewis. Now why is he here? We need to have alcohol tested.

Amy Grant: This just got really weird.

Mark: This goes straight to nowhere.

Andrew: So join us for Season Two of Dinner Conversations.

Mark: Turning the light on one question at a time.

Andrew: That's what happened here. I was looking for someone in their 60s, 70s, 80s.

Mark: Well, you found me.

Ginny Owens | A Christmas Memory

Ginny Owens: One of my favorite Christmas memories is actually a really recent one. I had the opportunity last Christmas to go to a, I guess you'd call it a midnight Christmas Eve service. It started at 10:30 p.m. And after kind of going through the story of Christmas and singing various carols and hearing beautiful music we ended the service with Silent Night and lit candles. And there was just something really beautiful about welcoming Christmas and just thinking so much about what this day means to us the significance of who we're celebrating on this day and doing that kind of in preparation and especially just with other people singing together. So, unlike most Christmases when I'm sleeping in the bed 'cause I don't want to miss Santa or something or I do want to miss Santa, I guess, it was wonderful to actually get to welcome Christmas in in this way.

Nic Gonzales & Jaci Velasquez singing “Noche De Paz”

Noche de paz
Noche de amor
Todo duerme alrededor
Todo el mundo celebra con fe
A ese niño nacido en Belén
Con canciones del corazón
Hoy ha nacido el amor

Noche de paz
Noche de amor
Todo duerme alrededor
Ni los ángeles quieren cantar
Para no despertar al Señor
Todo es paz en la obscuridad
Hoy ha nacido el amor

Come on, Andy.

Noche de paz
Noche de amor
Todo duerme alrededor
Todo el mundo celebra con fe
A ese niño nacido en Belén
Con canciones del corazón
Hoy ha vencido el amor

Mark Lowry singing “O Come All Ye Faithful”

O come, all ye faithful
Joyful and triumphant
O come ye, o come ye to Bethlehem
Come and behold Him
Born the King of Angels

O come, let us adore Him
O come, let us adore Him
O come, let us adore Him
Christ the Lord

Sing, choirs of angels
Sing in adoration
Oh, sing, all ye citizens of heaven above
Glory to God
All glory in the highest

O come, let us adore Him
O come, let us adore Him
O come, let us adore Him
Christ the Lord

We wish you a Merry Christmas
We wish you a Merry Christmas
We wish you a Merry Christmas
And a Happy New Year

Mark: Merry Christmas, everybody! Alright.

Andrew: We got Crystal Lewis singing. Go tell it on the mountain. I sound just like a black woman. Well, Crystal's white, but then.

Mark: Yeah, who's on, let's start over. You don't have to say.

Andrew: I got it.

Mark: Oh, wait, I gotta clean my teeth.

Andrew: Oh, that is gross.

Mark: Well, don't you need to? Oh, you can hear it?

Andrew: It sounds like this. Oh, stop it.

Mark: Okay.

Andrew: Okay, we gotta go.

Mark: Okay, we gotta go. Okay. What's happening?

—

Mark: That was all brilliant so I hope you save it.

Andrew: There's some great stuff in there.

Mark: We hope you've enjoyed this episode of Dinner Conversations on YouTube.

Andrew: Don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel so that you'll be one of the first to know when new episodes are uploaded and ready to view. As well, it helps us a lot if you will comment in the comment section or like or unlike us.

Mark: No, don't unlike us.

Andrew: And don't forget to also check us out on podcast channels whether that's at iTunes or Podcast Bean or wherever you listen, and subscribe there, as well.

Mark: So tune in next week for an episode of Dinner Conversations on YouTube.

Andrew: Turning the light on one question at a.

Mark: Time.

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